.44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! really

Discussions related to firearms that do not fit in anywhere else.
User avatar
Baljit
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:27 am
Location: Kelowna , BC . Canada

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by Baljit » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:19 am

Skyman wrote:I am based in India.I have said this before, i need not have shot a .44 to know it can, i repeat CAN take down a bear, in the same way i need not have flown concorde to know it travels faster than sound.Why aren't people getting this?



Because what ever you are posting here based on the internet or books but in the real world nobody like to take a chance when they are in the bear country. In my last post i make that point because by the time that bear is dead he is only 15yards away from us . Now think for a sec. if we use .44 Mag.do you think we have a chance to servive?

.44 Mag is a powerful handgun but i like to know how many guy's like to take a chance with grizzly?

Baljit

For Advertising mail webmaster
Sakobav
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 2973
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: US

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by Sakobav » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:49 am

skyman

Thanks to you folks got some interesting information -- talking about internet and documentaries is one thing seeing one in life entirely other some experience folks tried to talk sense get the drift and move on and stop your meaningless snide remarks
Firing a 44 revolver I for one will break my wrist and one needs nerves of steel to get lucky shot...

User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by timmy » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:49 am

This is an interesting subject and I wish I had available an interesting article I've xeroxed from some old publication -- maybe an old Guns Digest or Handloader -- about the US Forest Service examining the usefulness of rifles for personnel in Alaskan Bear country. It would be most interesting to post the article here in its entirety, but I don't have it in electronic format.

This article ran about 30 tests on a variety of guns for use un Alaskan bear country. Some that I can recall included a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs, .30-'06 in several bullet weights, .338 Magunum, 375 H&H, 458 Winchester, .45-70, 444 Marlin, and yes, the 44 Magnum handgun. The idea here was to identify an alternative to the commonly carried 375 H&H, a proven performer, due to the need for smaller people and women to handle the rifle in the back country. For these folks, a 375 H&H was a bit too much to control. Various aspects of each choice were considered, including penetration and bullets.

Here, I'd like to note that most of us have observed (correctly, I think) that bullet placement is the #1 most important aspect to successfully shooting game effectively, especially dangerous game. (Not because dangerous game are more vulnerable to a well placed shot than non-dangerous game, but because the consequences of a poorly placed shot in the case of dangerous game is likely to be -- well -- dangerous!)

Again, most of us have noted that proper shot placement is paramount over cartridge selection, but we all recognize that cartridge selection is very important, as well.

Another aspect that has not received so much attention here is the construction of the bullet. Those of us who study African hunting have read time and time again about certain cartridges having poorly constructed bullets, which break up on some dangerous game like elephant, rhino, or buffalo, and fail to deliver a fatal wound in a timely manner, despite being correctly placed and coming from a cartridge that, on paper at least, has enough power to do the job in most people's books.

So I think that bullet construction plays a part as important as cartridge selection when discussing the dispatch of large grizzly/brown bears. Indeed, those old African hunters seem to discuss the cartridge and the bullet as one subject, using terms like "an effective killer" or "a reliable killer," and we ought to pay attention to both aspects of a cartridge, as well.

I will note that some folks here in the USA have long hunted deer with a .357 Magnum handgun. This cartridge was developed because some folks felt that the .38 Special was lacking in power for police work. Here, I'd note that the .38 Special was very commonly used in police work into the 70s, at least, in the USA, and that the .38 Special, especially when fired from shorter barreled revolvers, was more or less on par with the 380 ACP. The 357, on the other hand, is more in the 9mm parabellum range and above in power.In Europe and the USA years ago, such weapons were thought to be excessively powerful for police work, although that has changed in our present day.

Please recall that a "bad guy" is going to weigh between 60 and 100 Kg, whereas a buck is likely to weigh up to twice as much as that. Furthermore, when hunting, one might well expect to encounter longer ranges than in a defensive situation. So, what is normally considered a fearsome weapon when talking about shooting a person becomes something very marginal when taking something the size of a deer in the field.

Now, when considering the grizzly bear, one should keep in mind that he is much much larger than the ordinary buck, especially those of the Alaskan type. Furthermore, while North America does not have the "armored" dangerous big game like Africa (elephant, rhino, and buffalo), a grizzly has a massive bone structure, thick skull, layer upon layer of thick muscle, and a dense matting of hair, all of which serve to impede the penetration of a bullet.

So, while a grizzly may not have battleship-scale armor like the African species, he is a lot different from deer when considering how to penetrate to a vital area. Remember, an enraged grizzly needn't survive being shot to kill a hunter -- all he needs to do is stay alive long enough to do you in to spoil your day, and one swipe of his massive paw is sufficient to turn your head into a polo ball. At that point, whether the bear eventually dies from your gunshot or not becomes rather moot. I think we can all agree on that.

44 Magnum pistol bullets are not meant for big game hunting -- indeed, most bullets used in handgun ammunition are not meant for that kind of use. Handgun bullets usually are made to expand quickly, due to their relatively slow speed, compared to rifles. The availability of rifle cartridges in handguns like the Thompson Contender and Encore is not just for the extra performance even a lowly .30-30 gives over a 44 Magnum -- it's also because a .30-30 will have a true hunting bullet, rather than one intended for target shooting, police work, or self-defense. There is a world of difference between these two kinds of bullets, and the tougher and more dangerous the game, the more this makes a difference.

For instance, what happens to a 44 Magnum bullet, meant to expand in a human at 15 to 25 yards, strikes the rib of a grizzly at 50 yards? (Or, does one propose to let the bear come closer before shooting??) In this instance, a 44 Magnum bullet is not going to be dependable for continuing on intact to destroy the heart, is it?

From remembering the test I referred to, the 444 Marlin was rejected for just this reason. The 444 Marlin cartridge is essentially a 44 "Super Magnum," and is the 44 magnum with an extra long case and larger powder charge suitable for the longer barrel of a rifle. At the higher bullet velocities this cartridge affords, the tests found the 44 Magnum bullets to be undependable, breaking up when encountering solid objects. This, to me, is proof of the unsuitability of the 44 Magnum bullet: it is made too light for dealing with such large, dangerous game as a grizzly, much less an Alaska-style grizzly, because it is either too slow to ensure sufficient penetration or is not built robust enough to survive impacts with bone at velocities that will give sufficient penetration.

I hardly think any serious, knowledgable hunter would take the field with a 44 Magnum handgun to hunt grizzlies, whether in Alaska or anywhere else. As for the person who carries protection against grizzlies because that person works or travels through grizzly country, my opinion would be that being satisfied to carry a 44 Magnum as protection against such animals is a bit short sighted.

By the way, the test, as I recall, named cartridges for use against grizzlies to be ones that are no surprise: 458 Winchester, 375 H&H, and the like were ranked at the top of those tested. The minim reliable cartridge was considered to be the 338 Winchester (with a heavy bullet, as I recall), again, hardly a surprise. Ballistically and bullet-wise, the 44 Magnum is a mere pipsqueak compared to such rounds.

As far as shooting a 44 Magnum, they are not such a big deal. I will admit that my hands are larger than normal, which gives some advantage to shooting such guns. My experience was with a Model 29 Smith & Wesson with a 6" barrel. It was easier to shoot than the loads I'd worked up for my Ruger in 45 Colt, 23.5 grains of 296 under a Hornady 250 grain. But then again, the large Smith & Wesson is ergonomically superior to the old Colt "plow handle" grips of the Si ngle Action Army and its clones.

I think that it's wise to recognize that there are many different kinds of guns for many different kinds of jobs. That's my opinion on this matter.
“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”

saying in the British Royal Navy

User avatar
xl_target
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:47 am
Location: USA

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by xl_target » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:33 am

Excellent post Tim,
Bullet construction is truly a large part of what must be considered when choosing a "dangerous game" cartridge.
As for shooting a .44 mag in a revolver, as you suggest, the handgun does makes a difference. Here is a shot of my 5ft 2in daughter shooting a Smith in .44 mag. No sweat!

Image

Re: your comment on the "plow handle" of the SAA; notice the grip. She learned to shoot a revolver using a Colt SAA. She's trying to get her pinkie finger under the butt like she was taught. Not really necessary on the Smith with the large grips. Also notice that she is left eye dominant. She closes the right eye and rolls her head to use the left eye to look down the sights. The bicep almost acts like the cheek rest of a rifle with the locked right arm. Awkward? Yes but it works well for her. The pivot point is at the shoulder rather than the wrist. I think that allows her to handle the large caliber handguns relatively easily. She thinks the Coonan .357 is a delight to shoot. :)
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

Skyman
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:29 pm

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by Skyman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:42 am

Baljit and Ngrewal, i see both of you have made the incorrect assumption that i read off the internet and try to go head to head with people like you who have the privilege of shooting many guns we can only dream about.

My statements have basis in fact.My fathers sisters husband ( don't know exact term for that,shall call him uncle ) is a doctor in the USA.He and a Canadian friend of his went on a fishing trip to Alaska.They put their catch in the back of their pickup and headed back, as it was rapidly getting dark.They had a breakdown, and decided to make a fire by the wayside while help arrived. My uncle went to fetch some twigs while his friend was looking under the hood.

Not wanting to stray far, he restricted himself to a short radius.He collected a small pile and started back when he heard his friend cry out,and a gun go off.He dropped the wood and ran to the truck.A grizzly had knocked his friend down and was going to work on his chest and face.My uncle pulled his gun and shot the bear thrice in the head/neck region and then the bear took off and dropped some distance away.

My uncle told me this story at a family reunion maybe 6 years ago.He wears the bears teeth around his neck to this day.I asked him, which gun and he said in Kannada, " Nalavath Nalakku, Dodda Gundu gun " which means " 44 big bullet gun " which i assume is 44 magnum. So there.

I have made no snide remarks.Now that the both of you know i haven't been puffing air, I daresay it is you who have been snide.But, i'll let it slide.

For the last time, i said a .44 mag will take down a bear.I did not say it is ideal for that,neither did i say you will succeed in doing so,neither did i say it is enough when faced with a bear.I said it can be done,because it has.Not because someone claimed to have done it.
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

User avatar
kenhypno
On the way to nirvana
On the way to nirvana
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:44 pm
Location: mumbai

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by kenhypno » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:18 pm

Thank you friends it was really enlightening !i doubt even Google can provide that ? :D
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -- The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)

User avatar
Baljit
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:27 am
Location: Kelowna , BC . Canada

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by Baljit » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:34 pm

Thank you very much for showing us your sense . i do not like to explane my self to some one who do not understand the point what we can see in the real world.


Baljit

hks2056
Almost at nirvana
Almost at nirvana
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:57 pm
Location: delhi

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by hks2056 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:14 pm

What Timmy has said is absolutely correct. In hunting situation the yard stick is preponderance of probabilty. Which means that in a given situation which calibre and type of bullet in all likelihood will bring down the animal with certainty on correct placement of shot. In hunting situation the real life experience shows that MOA placement of shot is exceptional rarity. So large calibre rifle bullets make up for slight error in precise placement of shot due to hydro-static shock to the vital organ even when the perfect bulls eye hit is not there.This gives room for follow up shot. Theoretically 44 Magnum fired from revolver at a very close range can put down a bear provided it is a heavy jacketed bullet [ which factory loaded revolver cartridges never are] and is able to make a precise and direct hit to the central nervous system or a major blood vessel so as to incapacitate the animal. We all know that in a real life situation this never happens. As it so happens the north american bears are not reported to be available as sitting ducks.
Last edited by hks2056 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Skyman
Shooting true
Shooting true
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:29 pm

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by Skyman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:04 pm

You are absolutely correct.It was an extremely lucky occurrence.

Baljit, maybe i should have started with this incident first.
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

TwoRivers
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by TwoRivers » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:34 pm

Just to keep things going. The preference would be for a heavy, hard-cast lead bullet, not a jacketed one. You want deep penetration without break-up and distortion. A hit in a major blood vessel or heart at close range, while fatal, will leave a grizzly enough time to turn the shooter into mincemeat.

User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Re: .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world ! rea

Post by timmy » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:33 am

Since we are swapping stories, I will tell one of mine:

When it comes to hunting, my favorite pastime has always been varmint hunting. In Montana, we had what is known as the Columbian ground squirrel, which lives in colonies like the better-known prairie dog. Generally, ranchers will poison these colonies because a colony can eat as much grass as quite a few cows, believe it or not. The burrows they dig do benefit the soil (or, I should say, what little soil there is in the mountains) by aerating it, but those same burrows will break the leg of an incautious horse or cow, which then requires the destruction of the animal.

Many of the natural predators have either been thinned or eliminated, so these animals have a booming population.

I felt that shooting them and thinning their population somewhat was much to be preferred to poison. Many old guys in ranching areas would spend many afternoons sitting in cars with Ruger 10/22s, shooting them all day. Some shot so much they would wear out a 10/22! Usually, ranchers would buy the ammunition for these fellows.

Anyway, I would go out to a favorite spot for all-day shooting events. Often, I would tie a piece of twine around my Marlin 39a (it worked just as well as a 10/22!) and sling it across my back, balance a brick (500 rounds) of 22 LR between my legs, and head out on my Harley for the shooting ground.

I liked to carry a revolver (though I prefer the 1911, try chasing brass in sagebrush!) and maybe 50 or 100 rounds, because there was so much shooting, I would get bored, and at that time, I'd start up trying to take them with the handgun.

So, one day I was out shooting these animals, and I had my Ruger in 45 Colt with me. I drew a bead on a ground squirrel perched on the mound by his burrow about 20 to 25 yards away and touched off a a round in his direction. I was pretty sure I hit him, but I could not find him laying about anywhere. I saw the track of the bullet in the dirt for about 6 or so feet, and it was right on line with where the animal was.

After looking about, I noted a ground squirrel tail just about as far as I could see down the burrow. I got a couple of sticks and pulled him out, and was amazed at what i saw:

The bullet had hit the ground squirrel dead center in the neck. His head was held on to his body by a thin strip of hide on each side -- nothing more. So, you tell me how that squirrel came down from the top of his mound and almost disappeared down his burrow with no connection between his head and body, other than two strips of skin.

I cannot explain it, myself, but I will tell you, I gained a while new respect with what a wounded animal can do. Almost anyone who has hunted has seen game go incredible distances after being hit by a seemingly deadly wound. I don't want to be anywhere near a grizzly who is not stone, cold dead. They can run as fast as a horse and could easy do deadly damage, as Two Rivers mentions, before expiring from some little hole in his anatomy.
“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”

saying in the British Royal Navy

Post Reply