Need help to buy a SHORT self defence gun

[TC]

One more thing struck me (somewhat late) w.r.t carrying a short Indian made DBBL shotgun in your backback/ bag - I don't think any Indian company (& most/ all old imported shotguns currently circulating in the Indian market) has safety's which block the firing pin, all of them use simple trigger block safety's. So (hypothetically) with the gun loaded and safety on, if the bag took a knock or two - you could possibly have an accidental discharge! Not a happy situation...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Thanks Abhijeet, this aspect crossed my mind (somewhat late) after the suggestion for rebounding hammer came up in the last post .... a loaded chamber inside a backpack is a complete NO NO without hammer safety.

Its quite impossible to get an old foreign hammer gun with a "legal" 20/21 inch barrel. I have checked out some old guns kept in safe custody of police and dealers under Section 21. The shortest one I found is a 26 inch DB Winchester, a full stock, but with internal hammer/pin.
Have also traced two old Mossberg pumps. But both have full stocks and 28 inch barrels (and believe it or not with full length mag tubes, ventilated shrouds / heat shields and bayonet lugs ). None of these will serve my purpose even if I spend money, resources and time to get them cleared for sale.

At the moment I really do not have any choice as far as a "backpacking legally short and safe" gun is concerned..

Dropping the idea till I come across one...

Cheers

TC

[Safarigent]

The best you can do imho, is to get an iof pump action shotgun, get a folding stock on it and get its barrell sawed off to the minimum legal length by someone who is licensed to do so.
But, it beats logic that you want to pick up a shotgun, instead of a revolver for self defence.
If a revolver was attracting attention, wouldnt a shotgun attract a lot more attraction?
You keep your shotgun in a bag, all your self defence has gone out of the window and into the bag, literally.
You need a weapon which is readily accesible. Will a goon give you permission to open your backpack and get your gun out and then ready it for use?
What about accuracy? Once you have ratchetd up the level of confrontation by firing a shot and if the goon isnt down, then what? Even a rudimentary aiming system on a desi katta, that is to sight down the barrel will be more effective that to hold your shotgun from the hip and fire, because if you try firing a pistol grip shotgun, the consequences have already been detailed here. Why buy a big, heavy, expensive dumbell which will most likely get you killed/ injured instead of a revolver/ pistol which is lighter/ accurate and capable of firing more rounds without reloading and wasting time? How about maneuveribility? Pointability? What about ease of use? Worst comes to worse, you can alsways switch hands and use only your weaker hand if the situation warrants, cant do that with a shotty.
A shotgun is a mighty fine gun for home defence, to be kept at home to keep people at bay, but it pales in comparison to a handgun if you want it on your person for self defence.
Not that i carry any fire arm on me for self defence, but i know immediate family members who do and this just my 2 paisa worth.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Safarigent,

Try looking down the barrel of double barrel shotgun and then do the same with a .32 revolver/pistol and then answer this question honestly, "Would you take chances with a man armed with the former or the latter?"

A short barreled shotgun with a normal stock can be surprisingly handy.

[Safarigent]

Hi wtp,
If i can help it, i would excuse myself from the situation.
If not, i guess its a matter of distance.
At intermediate distances, When the pattern starts opening up, i would much rather face a handgun, at close range i would much rather prefer a shotgun to go up against. I know the damn thing can disembowel me, but its unwieldy and depending on the model can discharge one, two or five shells(i dont know the capacity of the iof p.a.) while i with a handgun can go up to 6 shots easily.
Also the ease of speedloaders and spare clips for revolvers and pistols makes them much more viable tools for self defence in my opinion.
What i am trying to understand is:
Are not shotguns better home defence weapons and handguns better self defence weapons?
What do you think?
plus i am wondering whether the need to use both hands on a shotgun go against it vis a vis a handgun. More things to wrong imho. What if the position of the hands is wrong,what if he shoulders the gun wrong or fumbles in doing so, what if at that moment, like xltarget said, when your motor processes are slowing down, he doesnt cock the hammers on a hammered shotty or presses the wrong trigger in haste, if its a gun with seperate triggers? If he is aiming from the hip, doesnt the problems of aim get further compounded. I was trying this out as we speak with a laser pointer. 100% of the times i tried i could not get the beam where i wanted by a decent margin, if i pointed from the hip, so as to speak, whereas by aiming with the pointer along the tube, i was able to acheive a measure of accuracy.
On the flip side, we have the benefits of point and shoot for a shotgun vs the aim and shoot for a handgun. Where each second can be vital, that could mean a major difference.
What about ammo, one can carry far more ammo of a handgun than a shotgun, one is liable to attract far more attention toting a shotgun than with a handgun, any day. For me that is a negative.
Also, even if i may have to carry my fire arm for self defence, i want it within easy reach of me, deployable instantly. I dont want to carry my shotty in a bag or leave it behind in the car, as i cant predict which exact moment i might be facing danger.
Like i mentioned earlier, i dont carry a weapon for self defence. What about you? If you do or ever did or ever would, what would you carry and why?

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

Just to muddy the waters, there is availible Aquila Mini 12 ga shotgun shells which are just the thing for this discussion.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... rers_id/13

They are 1/2 the length(more or less) of a standard 12 ga shell

Originaly, when they were first announced, there was Supposed to be a special shotgun made just to fire
the Mini 12 ga.

I thought it is a great idea for home defense because of the lighter recoil and shorter action.

Plus an 18 inch barrel with standard 5 round magazine could have 8 or more rounds instead of 5.

Unfortuneately the gun was never made. I called and asked Aguila.

But, the good news is that these shorter rounds will work in some standard shotguns.
Testing is required and some modifications to the carrier may be necessary.

[timmy]

That's a pity!

It seems to me a specially lightened, short barreled single shot like the old Beretta FS 1 would be just dandy with the short Aguila shells.



(at the top)



(folded)

[goodboy_mentor]

That's the reason why all Indian "legally short" guns have 21 inch barrels. After all who would take the trouble of manufacturing 21.5 inch barrel !! half an inch more wouldn't make much difference anyway. Rather, it makes machining easier.

Not all Indian "legally short" shotguns have twenty one inches barrel. For example the Indian Ordnance Factory manufactured NPB pump action shotgun is of twenty inches in length. It can be confirmed from this link http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/6.htm

The point I am trying to convey is that a barrel of twenty inches length is perfectly NPB. It does not have to be a little more than twenty inches to be NPB. But as a matter of precaution if someone is making or keeping it a little longer than twenty inches, it is not an issue.

[TC]

"But as a matter of precaution if someone is making or keeping it a little longer than twenty inches, it is not an issue".

.
Mentor this is precisely what I was thinking.

Cheers

TC

[TC]

Timmy,

I have seen an Indian gun (cant remember the company) that is readily available at shops here. It is a copy of this Beretta. A dealer said the makers use Japanese steel for the 21 inch barrel. The gun is handy but somehow I don't like the idea of carrying it folded like this in a bag. Fast deployment of the weapon is not my criteria. But a double barrel or pump action would make me more comfortable. But frankly, of all the single barrel shorties I have checked out the Beretta clone is so far the best.

Cheers

TC

[TC]

But, it beats logic that you want to pick up a shotgun, instead of a revolver for self defence.

Safarigent,

If you go through my earlier posts you will understand that I am not looking for a replacement for my handguns. All I want is a reliable shotgun that can carried in a backpack during trips with my family. There is no threat perception involved here. Just a precaution. When I know that I am going to venture into a troubled area I carry a handgun.

Cheers

TC

[winnie_the_pooh]

Safarigent,

Speed loaders/spare magazines are of little consequence in a self defence situation.You would be lucky if you can take out your handgun and get off a shot.As far as what I carry,it is an IOF pistol.If I were really worried about a threat,I would carry everything that I have, a couple of shotguns,a couple of rifles and a couple of handguns and probably a big rambo type knife

[Safarigent]

Wtp,
Your humour is entertaining. God knows we need more indians who can laugh and make others laugh.
In this case, i guess we will have to choose to disagree. Like you, i lean more towards the handgun.
As far as speed loaders and or spare clips are concerned, i think they are a great tool.
Anything which reduces the time you are not firing is good. Same for a double over a single and a pump action over a double.
Tc,
I did read your posts and what has me confused is, why not just carry your handgun in your backpack?

[timmy]

TC, my thought is that, with a pump, you are giving away 6 to 8 inches of wasted length, since compactness and overall length is an issue. With a single or a double of either flavor, there is no action taking up space.

I very much appreciate what Abhijeet notes regarding the safety. This is especially important on singles and doubles, since one pretty much needs to carry them chambered in order to have them remotely ready for action. I am getting to the point that I don't consider a trigger safety to be a true safety. I want a safety that locks the firing mechanism, not something that just blocks the trigger and relies on the sear and hammer notch to prevent it from going bang.

For this reason, I do prefer exposed hammers, but not just any kind of hammer. If the gun can be dropped and set off the shell in the chamber by the force of impact, then the exposed hammer offers little safety margin. I would say that the hammer should be of the rebounding type, where the hammer rests naturally off of the firing pin and is locked from striking the firing pin by accident. Only if the trigger is pulled can a hammer of the rebounding type strike the firing pin.

On the Beretta FS 1, I was only thinking that a specially made one, or one in a double barreled version, could be make by modern investment casting to eliminate all extra weight in the receiver. The barrel(s) would be made short to the legal limit, and very thin, especially at the chamber end, as would be appropriate for the Aguila shells Yogi notes. The stock could be skeletonized composite, so that the whole shebang would have minimum length and minimum weight. Maybe one could even get into the 1.5 to 2 Kg range! In this design, I'd not use hammers, but use a striker firing pin(s) with a positive, cross-bolt safety lock that positively anchors the striker(s) in receiver, but would be quick and easy to release.

Back in the late 70s, I wanted to make up a hand-held "shotgun." This, of course, is illegal, but my recipe was to use an old British .455 revolver that had a barrel with the rifling almost, but not quite, washed out by normal service. I'd have bored the cylinder chambers through and use .45 Colt cases, loading up shot cartridges for the thing. I thought it would be quite dandy.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Safarigent,

A self defence situation will be over very quickly. Count the time in seconds.At the end of it,either you will be dead or seriously wounded or the attacker would be dead or seriously wounded or either or both would disengage.

If you visualize a situation like the "Shoot out at the OK corral" ( speed loaders/spare magazines),you would be better served by a rifle.

[TC]

Tc,
I did read your posts and what has me confused is, why not just carry your handgun in your backpack?

Safarigent,

Call me conservative or old fashioned if you feel but I have never carried (and never will) my handguns in a bag. A sidearm is essentially part of the body (or uniform in case of the armed forces). This is my opinion and many would agree I suppose. There are a few things I believe and have practiced ever since I had my first pistol 25 years ago.
a) Outside home I never separate my handgun from my body.
b) I never let anybody around me know that I am carrying a gun unless it is required for official purpose.
Essentially, a handgun is supposed to be carried concealed and exposed only and only if my life or that of my family is in REAL danger. Reading a threat correctly is the most essential part of the responsibility that goes with handgun ownership. Leaving a handgun in a bag and going for a swim is a very scary thought for me. You may ask whether I would feel comfortable leaving a shotgun in a bag and going for a swim... Call me biased but I would say, yes I would. Outside the arena of shooting ranges and museums there is an ideological and perceptual difference between the purpose and use of long guns and handguns.

Cheers
TC