India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of Arm

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India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of Arm

Post by χάος » Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:31 pm

Hi,

I am routinely following the Rafale title in the news and otherwise as a flying enthusiast.

It is very heartening to know that Defense Ministry has finalised Dassault's Rafale, a Twin-Engine, Delta Wing, agile, multirole Fighter Jet to arm the nation.
Rafale Fighter Jet.jpg
I was quite astonished to see that we can now afford only the best and not a substitute of something which is the best. Rafale is every Fighter's delight, pleasure and a fun to fly thing; and not just a value for money combat aircraft. Moreover in-the-terms; it is a transfer-of-technology agreement not just the contract-sale style of sale purchase. Therefore in a longer term India can indigenously manufacture the aircraft or its advanced version.

Also in term of technology and manufacturing it is a wholly designed and built in France, unlike American/European where for the purpose of cost-cutting the manufacturing process is outsourced. So it is now not necessary for India to maintain diplomatic relationship with a group of countries to seek favourability and unrestricted supply the aircrafts, upgrades and its accessories. We are just required to be a good friend of the Frenchmen. :wink:

In many other ways Rafale is a wise option - Strategically; and otherwise too.
india-buys-french-fighter-jets.jpg
Well, I'm not going to use the space to tell you all that 'What it can do ??' rather I am sharing this article which is interesting in its nature because it tells us HOW we choose and WHY we choose ..



India’s quest for the top gun

Selecting the right fighter jet often involves reconciling contradictory technical needs with strategic doctrine
by: Cross Hairs | Raghu Raman

With announcement of Rafale as the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) next generation fighter, the “dogfight” among six of the world’s leading aircraft seems to have ended. However, those unfamiliar with weaponization strategies might wonder how countries decide upon any weapon system. Is it simply a matter of the best? If so, what is best?

The answer isn’t straightforward. The choice of a weapon system has less to do with specifics of its technical capabilities and more with imperatives of strategic doctrine. To understand this better, let’s start the journey from a lowly assault rifle rather than a sophisticated aerial platform such as a fighter jet.

An assault rifle is the mainstay of infantry, i.e. bulk of the fighting force of any country, and has over 10 design parameters which are often contradictory. For instance, a rifle should be accurate, have long range, be easy to maintain, sturdy enough to survive the rigours of battlefield, have a rapid rate of fire, and easy to handle with one hand for urban combat. In addition, the weapon must be light, have compact ammunition of the same calibre as other weapons so that supply chain logistics are manageable. It must have the capability to be used in different versions, for instance, paratroopers need shorter rifles and infantry support groups need longer ranges. Each of these requirements contradicts many others.
For example, accuracy over long ranges means the barrel will have to be long and the rate of fire cannot be high. This in turn makes the rifle unwieldy and suboptimal in a fierce firefight. If the rifle has to be sturdy with heavy munitions then it can’t be light and soldiers will tire before they enter battle.

Such complications exacerbate as weapon platforms get more complex. For instance, let’s consider the battle tank. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (Nato) designers were compelled to build heavier tanks because their theatres are limited in space and their tanks had to be heavily armoured to hold ground without ceding position. A lesson reinforced by the German blitzkrieg when France was overrun in a matter of days. Also, Nato countries have comparatively low manpower though they are better skilled and educated. Hence, tanks such as the British Chieftain and French Leclerc were designed upward of 55 tonnes, have high crew comfort and the crew is “dual traded”, i.e. each member of the crew is expected to know more than just his own job, necessitating higher investments in training and retention.

The Soviets, however, relied on a much lighter and cheaper tank of the T54/55 series, because they could trade “time for space”. The Soviet strategy was to let invaders enter deep into the Russian hinterland—a situation they could afford, primarily because of their strategic depth—and then hit the supply chains through encirclement and, of course, the assistance of “General” Winter. The “Warsaw” doctrine, therefore, catered to Russia’s strengths which are plentiful supply of conscripted manpower, manoeuvring space and the severe weather where sophisticated equipment had more chances of failure. These strategies are consistent with their assault rifles as well. While the West has relied on relatively sophisticated weapons such as the American M16, British FAL and the French Famas, the Soviets developed the cheap but reliable AK47 series.

The key to understanding these strategies is to appreciate that in combat, a weapon is never pitted against another weapon in purely technical terms. It is, instead, a combination of the technical prowess, soldier’s capabilities, terrain and the national doctrine which decides the optimum arraignment of weapon platforms. So, while a sophisticated Heckler and Koch rifle could be an ideal weapon for highly-trained special forces, a much cheaper and rugged AK47 is better suited for mass infantry attacks, though on a purely technical comparison, the Heckler would outgun the AK.

Fighter aircraft are sophisticated weapon platforms and, hence, their inter-linkage is far more complicated. Modern fighters are expected to perform “omniroles”. They have to be highly manoeuvrable for “air-to-air” dogfights, possess heavy lift capability for tactical and strategic bombing, have long radius of action, be capable of operations from land and sea, etc. Their supply chain is even more complicated, especially for India, which has a wide and diverse area of geographical interest. Fighters need air refuelling, naval carriers, multi-weapon capability, an intricate web of radars, airborne warning and control system, sophisticated maintenance, repair and overhaul facilities and indigenous manufacturing to minimize external dependence.
rafale_600_13_jpgaaa3d33e-5057-4208-a2f7-631b333705a4Large.jpg
They also need synchronization with other arms such as the army and navy. For, while IAF may pummel the enemy and establish air superiority, it is of little use unless armoured formations can rapidly exploit this hole and pour into enemy territory. And the latter’s ability to do that is contingent on their own modernization programme which depends on the country’s threat perceptions and mitigation strategy over the coming decades.

Viewed from this perspective, it is rarely the technical superiority of any single weapon system that matters. Instead, it is the complex “organization for battle” derived from strategic doctrine which serves as credible deterrence. And deterrence is what it must be—because as any soldier will affirm, war is an ironic game. The only winning move—is not to play.

Raghu Raman is an expert and a commentator on internal security.

Comments are welcome at [email protected]

Link to the article:
http://www.livemint.com/2012/02/2222335 ... he-to.html
rafale_cockpit_large.jpg
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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by sonny » Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:44 pm

Excellent write up... Thanks for sharing all this information

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by boris » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:04 pm

Though I was supporting the Typhoon I am still happy the Rafale has been selected,I heard that the Navy might be interested in the F-35 for the New domestically produced aircraft carriers.
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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by fantumfan2003 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:11 pm

Its a nice article, trying to explain to lay people about acquiring weapon systems.

Selecting a modern weapon system like a multi-role fighter aircraft is not just based on technical merit. At least that has never been so for India until recent times.

While it does appear that the Rafale decision seems to be a sensible one, Indians can certainly expect the usual skeletons falling out of the closet in times to come. Such is the nature of defence deals. I too am glad that it is the Rafale.

However, It will be interesting to read what swayed the decision towards the Rafale and not the Typhoon as cost for the entire package was cited as a reason for selection.

It is heartening to see that the likes of steroided but outdated types like MiG-29M/35, Hornet/Super Hornet and Viper were rejected in the early stages. The combat debuts in Libya for the Rafale and Typhoon must have helped but its fair to assume that India will rarely exercise a chance to use such advanced weapon systems in anger.

At least this time round it appears the tax payers money has been spent wisely.

M.
vishalksinghVY wrote:Hi,

I am routinely following the Rafale title in the news and otherwise as a flying enthusiast.

It is very heartening to know that Defense Ministry has finalised Dassault's Rafale, a Twin-Engine, Delta Wing, agile, multirole Fighter Jet to arm the nation.
Rafale Fighter Jet.jpg
I was quite astonished to see that we can now afford only the best and not a substitute of something which is the best. Rafale is every Fighter's delight, pleasure and a fun to fly thing; and not just a value for money combat aircraft. Moreover in-the-terms; it is a transfer-of-technology agreement not just the contract-sale style of sale purchase. Therefore in a longer term India can indigenously manufacture the aircraft or its advanced version.



They also need synchronization with other arms such as the army and navy. For, while IAF may pummel the enemy and establish air superiority, it is of little use unless armoured formations can rapidly exploit this hole and pour into enemy territory. And the latter’s ability to do that is contingent on their own modernization programme which depends on the country’s threat perceptions and mitigation strategy over the coming decades.

Viewed from this perspective, it is rarely the technical superiority of any single weapon system that matters. Instead, it is the complex “organization for battle” derived from strategic doctrine which serves as credible deterrence. And deterrence is what it must be—because as any soldier will affirm, war is an ironic game. The only winning move—is not to play.

Raghu Raman is an expert and a commentator on internal security.

Comments are welcome at [email protected]

Link to the article:
http://www.livemint.com/2012/02/2222335 ... he-to.html
rafale_cockpit_large.jpg
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by Big Daddy » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:47 pm

Agreed! It's a great choice. But coming to transfer of technology, this has happened in many other air crafts too. Most of the purchases have been like that e.g, the Mirage. One of the reasons i guess is that internal production would have cut the cash flow to many corrupt persons, that's why in my opinion no crafts were ever built at home.

I do hope with this we have a greater edge over our neighbors.

BD
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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by fantumfan2003 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:27 pm

As regards build here or in country of origin, its a question of cost. As it happened with HAL manufacturing Su-30MKIs at higher prices and then the decision to by more MKIs built in Russia to control costs. Corruption is endemic in defence deals, some are known, many are not. As regards, technology transfer, why would any nation/company give you a piece of cutting technology on a platter for which they have invested time, money, blood and sweat ? India does have the means to produce hi-tech items, but they are slow in research and production and not at all cost effective. The best example in Military aviation is the LCA Tejas.

The MMRCA requirement of which the Rafale is a winner, itself is open to question because at that time, circa 2004, The IAF had actually finalised on buying a fleet of Mirage 2000-5 an advanced version of the multi-role Mirage 2000H it already flies. And to confuse matters further, they are now upgrading these H variants to the -5 variant at a per unit cost with which a nation could by complete fighter aircraft. But that's defence procurement as practiced by our governments, ministries and armed forces. Its akin to a headless chicken running around without direction.........Do note its the tax payers money that is wasted on wrong/delayed purchase decisions and kickbacks.....

M.


Big Daddy wrote:Agreed! It's a great choice. But coming to transfer of technology, this has happened in many other air crafts too. Most of the purchases have been like that e.g, the Mirage. One of the reasons i guess is that internal production would have cut the cash flow to many corrupt persons, that's why in my opinion no crafts were ever built at home.

I do hope with this we have a greater edge over our neighbors.

BD
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by MoA » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:45 am

Of the 6 aircraft that were in the running the Rafale is the right choice. It represents the latest technologies and capabilities.

I have followed the development of the aircraft in the running for a very long time, and infact even saw P1 and P2 of what then was the Jager 90 at MBB. :cheers:

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by Ace_doc » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:39 am

another tangent for thought is that while the su 30 is a super maneuverable the rafale is not. catering for this a/c will entail an entire separate logistic burden. so it may have been wiser to get more su 30s as per one viewpoint. but still it is a good direction we have taken and better than upgrading the old war horses like the jag/ mirage / migs. atleast we are getting new stuff.

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by lonetrigger » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:01 pm

Excellent Share Vishal.. Thanks.

An Airforce broadly consists of 7 categories
  • Interceptors
    Fighters-Bombers
    Multi Role
    Strategic Bombers
    Patrol/AWACS
    Transport
    Helicopters
SU-30 is an Interceptor while Rafale is a Multi-Role. Interceptors have greater manoeuverablity than other types.
Only select countries like, US and Russia have Strategic Bombers so far, both stealth and regular. Britain and China too may have but they not nearly as sophisticated.
Navies generally opt for Multi-Role aircrafts.

By the way, Rafale was rejected by European Nations in favor of Eurofighter.

Just my two cents...
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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by ckkalyan » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:10 pm

Thank you for sharing vishalksinghVY - very interesting indeed...

However at this time, I would like to mis-quote fantumfan2003's signature on this one... Jeet Ke Aage Darr Hai....

The intention has always been good - but here is the big BUT....we are so scared to make a decision, also we have numerous processes and procedures to go through before the whole plan gets Okay-ed. By the time we agree to decide, start ordering and THEN receiving equipment in phases, the goodies in question are already in the process of being phased out by newer innovation and technology! Catch 22! :roll: Sad!
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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by fantumfan2003 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:24 pm

That does not appear to be so. As far as maneuverability goes, a Rafale should be able to fly circles around an MKI, owing to its thrust to weight ratio and size. Why the Rafale, even the upgraded MiG-21bisON runs circles around an MKI. All three have Helmet mounted sighting systems for WVR air combat. Even in a BVR aircombat scenario, the Rafale should be equal or better than the MKI except probably the range of the MKI radar might be higher than that of the Rafale, but that is not necessarily an advantage.

The IAF has recently signed up for upgrading its Mirage 2000H to Mirage 2000-5 at a considerable price. It is also upgrading/upgraded, its MiG-21s, MiG-27s and Jaguars

Just FYI........

M.
Ace_doc wrote:another tangent for thought is that while the su 30 is a super maneuverable the rafale is not. catering for this a/c will entail an entire separate logistic burden. so it may have been wiser to get more su 30s as per one viewpoint. but still it is a good direction we have taken and better than upgrading the old war horses like the jag/ mirage / migs. atleast we are getting new stuff.
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by fantumfan2003 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:31 pm

The MKI version in the IAF is a multirole variant and not an interceptor. Pure Interceptors are all about speed and not maneuverability. (E.g. MiG-23MFFlogger, Su-15Flagon). The MKI can easily serve as a mini strategic bomber with its In Flight Refuelling capability. Britain has always fielded a great ground attack aircraft in the form of the Tornado IDS (GR1 to GR4) and China also has a version of the Su-30 the MK. Chinese military aviation has improved greatly in quality and quantity in the past decade. It would be a big mistake for India to be complacent about China.

Rafale was rejected because the British would never stomach the idea of having a French fighter in its force. Likewise for Germany. Its also an economical issue of keeping jobs within a country and all that.

M.
lonetrigger wrote:
SU-30 is an Interceptor while Rafale is a Multi-Role. Interceptors have greater manoeuverablity than other types.
Only select countries like, US and Russia have Strategic Bombers so far, both stealth and regular. Britain and China too may have but they not nearly as sophisticated.
Navies generally opt for Multi-Role aircrafts.

By the way, Rafale was rejected by European Nations in favor of Eurofighter.

Just my two cents...
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by fantumfan2003 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:33 pm

Absolutely correct, and you missed the first important step of finalising a requirement. Which itself takes a long time in India.

M.
ckkalyan wrote:Thank you for sharing vishalksinghVY - very interesting indeed...

However at this time, I would like to mis-quote fantumfan2003's signature on this one... Jeet Ke Aage Darr Hai....

The intention has always been good - but here is the big BUT....we are so scared to make a decision, also we have numerous processes and procedures to go through before the whole plan gets Okay-ed. By the time we agree to decide, start ordering and THEN receiving equipment in phases, the goodies in question are already in the process of being phased out by newer innovation and technology! Catch 22! :roll: Sad!
As an example of overcoming adversity, Karoly Takacs has few peers. He was part of Hungary’s world champion pistol-shooting team in 1938, when an army grenade exploded, crippling his right hand. Ten years later, having taught himself to shoot with his left, he won two gold medals in the rapid-fire class.

Darr ke aage jeet hai

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by FPSRussia » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:39 pm

A great addition the Rafale will be to the Indian Air Force....With the Sukhoi Su-30mki's, the Air Force will have considerable leverage against enemies....And 'yes' Indian can now afford the best....And its on the way for making the best itself.....



Cheers

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Re: India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of

Post by lonetrigger » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:58 pm

fantumfan2003 wrote:The MKI version in the IAF is a multirole variant and not an interceptor....
Rafale was rejected because the British would never stomach the idea of having a French fighter in its force. Likewise for Germany. Its also an economical issue of keeping jobs within a country and all that.
If its true that SU-30 MKI is a multi-role, then I stand corrected. Thanks.
The Rafale was rejected for several reasons, including Dassault's insistence on leadership role, moreover, France demanded a swing-role fighter that was lighter than a design desired by the other four nations. I am not saying that Rafale is second to Eurofighter.

I strongly feel that India should produce its own Fighter Aircraft rather than spending Billions on Aircraft Designs that were primarily designed to suit particular needs. I hope we make good investments in Aeronautics R&D and capable Production, only then can we look the Chinese in the eye.
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