Avenues of online RKBA debate

[Virendra S Rathore]

I recently opened another front for debate and discussion primarily on RKBA - at DFI (Defence Forum India). DFI is a nice place and has a strong user base in the people interested at defense, geo politics etc.
There's this thread that I keep active with updates and arguments.
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-s ... elf-3.html
It would be great if some members wish to join the debate and fill in with their knowledge. Will help improve the quality of discussion.

Keep Shooting,
Virendra

[Priyan]

Mr. Rathore,
I was looking at the thread you linked before registering and from a couple of posts there it feels like quite anti-gun. Someone was talking about "Assault rifle ban" and Violence in North East and India is not USA. First of all what the hell is "Assault rifle ban"? I guess he/she was talking about "Assault Weapons ban" it didn't actually ban or regulate AK47s actually as they were already regulated by NFA. Second even if North East is divided by tribes it's not like Cambodia. The most common problem here in North East is robbery and theft of vehicles, most people can't defend themselves or their property without a firearm. I guess this is why pickpockets and thief who gets caught dies in hands of angry mob, people are frustrated by the current situation and we all know from where frustration comes from, when we know it's wrong but can't do anything to stop it.

[Virendra S Rathore]

Mr. Rathore,
I was looking at the thread you linked before registering and from a couple of posts there it feels like quite anti-gun.

Which is why it is even more important to break the shackles and misconceptions. Those are Indians over there and so we have to care (relevance).

You would be the best person to argue with these points as you can sustain on them because of having the background with you.
Please post it there if you can.

Thank you.

[Priyan]

Mr. Rathore,
I'm currently in the process of registering an account there and will surely post there but I don't expect even a single of them to turn into a pro-gun as all men are born with love for gun in their heart but once they gets brainwashed by parents, mass media, government and Rosie O'Donnell it's next to impossible to convert them back to gun lover.
Still I'll post there not to let RKBA down and speaking of background I think you got a way better one than mine but I guess they won't care for it.

[Virendra S Rathore]

You can call me Veeru.
I don't mind them being anti gun. Please don't be expecting over night changes. We should only encourage strong and healthy debate over it .. as wide a debate as possible. Eventually it should snowball into a lot of pro and anti people. I really don't mind it. All I hope for now is to achieve a wider debate
Thanks for your interest. See you there soon.

Regards,
Virendra

[Priyan]

Veeru,
I posted a reply there but got a message that moderator will have to confirm before it gets posted. I say what's the point of posting in a online forum if posts must go through a third party. Expect no healthy debate when there's no freedom of speech. Anyways we can try to make it into a wider debate but I guess before it gets any bigger some of us might lose control and get banned and get the thread locked (I have seen this happening many times, once it was for posting about an airsoft replica of M32 grenade launcher). Anyways back on topic, I hope some of them feel the need of a gun one day and realize they don't have one I hope to see more IFGian there, I can see spin_drift but it would be good if more of them joins. A healthy debate is always good and I hope to see atleast one without the "India is not USA, USA gun laws won't work there" mentality.

[xl_target]

Virendra,
I took a look at the forum and it is excruciatingly slow for me so I decided not to join.

Priyan,
If you are going to register there, I think you might be able to change some minds. I like the way you think about the RKBA.
I see a lot of generalization going on there.
For example:

you want the US's crime rate with handguns too? because they come hand in hand..

He seems to be claiming that legal possession of handguns causes more crime when Lott has shown us that the opposite is true. Maybe you could ask him if he can show how many of those crimes committed with handguns were committed with legal handguns? Make guys like this cite (legitimate) sources. Many of these guys make vague generalizations that are not based in fact.

Or when they say "USA laws wont work here", ask them what particular laws they are talking about. You will probably find that they don't have a clue about gun laws in the US. I would also call BS on the "Indians are not law abiding" statement.

[Priyan]

Priyan,
If you are going to register there, I think you might be able to change some minds. I like the way you think about the RKBA.
I see a lot of generalization going on there.
For example:

you want the US's crime rate with handguns too? because they come hand in hand..

He seems to be claiming that legal possession of handguns causes more crime when Lott has shown us that the opposite is true. Maybe you could ask him if he can show how many of those crimes committed with handguns were committed with legal handguns? Make guys like this cite (legitimate) sources. Many of these guys make vague generalizations that are not based in fact.

Or when they say "USA laws wont work here", ask them what particular laws they are talking about. You will probably find that they don't have a clue about gun laws in the US. I would also call BS on the "Indians are not law abiding" statement.

That's exactly my point, every people pulls out some chart from some unknown site and claims they are legitimate. Also nobody ever makes a chart about crimes commited with illegal guns, even if someone points it out they goes to the imaginary "gun show loophole" which only exists in mind of Brady supporters. Speaking of the "USA different, those laws won't work" thing, I too wonder what USA laws they are talking about, lol when someone calls semi-auto AK clones AK47 and then talks about hunting deers with it, what else one can expect? As you mentioned Indians are not less law abiding but the "easy" 50 rupees bribe and get away thing and the lack of enforcement makes us a little bit reckless, Not to mention the chuparis, areca nuts and other harmful things help us to red carpet our streets

[Virendra S Rathore]

A couple of changes during measures of safety may have made the site slow for some, could be a possibility.
As far as comment approval is concerned it doesn't happen with me and most of the guys. Usually it happens when someone posts in a wrong way or gets in personal flame wars. Then the mods have to step in (I guess that we know at IFG as well, both are good forums after all).

Regards,
Virendra

[Virendra S Rathore]

FYI Update - The RKBA thread at DFI is still alive and kicking.
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-s ... elf-9.html
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-s ... lf-10.html
Priyan if you're still unable to post without moderation let me know. I believe it to be a technical/procedural issue and not a policy one.

Regards,
Virendra

[Virendra S Rathore]

The shit fest is on, for past 2 pages of the thread
Care to join?
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-s ... lf-10.html
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-s ... lf-11.html

Regards,
Virendra

[goodboy_mentor]

Few months ago I had tried registering on that website, for some reason it was not accepting the publicly available email ids like from yahoo, hotmail etc. Anyways following are my observations:

The self defense prohibitionists of every type(it includes the corrupt or tyrants everywhere around the world) go by the following undeclared premises:

1) The State and its citizens(usually called the public or public interest) are separate and at conflict with each other.(It needs to be be noted that this premise is very true and suitable for the corrupt or tyrants when they have State power in their hands. For example the colonial British rule in India and its subsequent after effects).

2) Since State and all its citizens are at conflict with each other, when State has arms, they are for its self defense only, but when its citizens(sorry slaves!) have arms, they have it for crime only.(Very true and suitable for the corrupt or tyrants when they have State power in their hands.)

3) Exercising the natural, basic fundamental and human right of self defense and keeping arms for self defense are two separate things because self defense by the citizens(sorry slaves!) is expected to be done with bare hands only. But the same right of self defense by the State can be done with help of arms only.(Very true and suitable for the corrupt or tyrants when they have State power in their hands.)

The Constitutional or legal position about the same in India is the following:

1) The State and its citizens are not separate or at conflict with each other. Rather they are equal and the equality is guaranteed by Article 14 of the Constitution of India.

2) Because of Article 14 of the Constitution of India, the arms are acknowledged as fundamental right of both for the State and its citizens under Articles 19 and 21 of the Constitution(more can be read at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 64#p147708). In other words both Articles 19 and 21 of the Constitution of India are equally applicable to the State and its citizens because of Article 14 of the Constitution of India. Moreover fundamental rights and fundamental duties are two sides of the same coin, i.e. rights cannot exist without duties and duties cannot exist without rights. Therefore surely fundamental duties under Article 51A(b),(c),(d),(i) are not expected do be done with bare hands only.

3) Because of Article 14 of the Constitution of India, both the State and its citizens have equal right for self defense as well as arms and their use for the same(within the limits of laws). Corollary to this we have the law enforcement machinery of State i.e. police etc., as well the law enforcement machinery of citizens in their personal capacity. When any person acts in self defense as defined under Section 96 to 106 IPC(which is nothing but corollary to Article 21 of the Constitution of India), he is doing nothing but enforcing the law(Sections 96 to 106 IPC) by acting as law enforcement machinery in personal capacity.

In light of the above facts, what is the modus operandi that self defense prohibitionists of all kinds can employ? Nothing except that do not discuss the above facts and truth so that people may not know the same, instead keep on harping around meaningless nonsense, start portraying rights as crime and crime as rights, so that ultimately a confusion can be created, with aim of preventing the facts and truth from reaching the people.

[Vineet]

The shit fest is on, for past 2 pages of the thread
Care to join?
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-s ... lf-10.html
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-s ... lf-11.html

Regards,
Virendra

Joined you there Virendra

[Virendra S Rathore]

Thanks a lot guys.
Please do keep visiting that thread as and when you get time.
It is very important to stimulate wider debate and awareness.

I sometimes shudder when I see our people so completely oblivious and sometimes antic to their own fundamental rights (like digging their own grave). And that too, which right - the one that bloody keeps you entitled to live. Couldn't choose a better one to throw away

I don't know when we'll galvanize on roads and courts against this slow death, but the least we could do (individually, without waiting for organized group action of NAGRI sorts) is to fight this battle at online platforms as much as possible.
Lets bet on the domino effect

Regards,
Virendra

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

Here's something to send them about Gun Control NOT WORKING in the US.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... rol-lobby/

Maybe if NAGRI or some members went over and joined some gun forms like Beretta Forum, Smith & Wesson

Forum or any of the other Pro gun forums in the US and talked about the Lack of gun rights in India, more

people like me can give you beter ideas and support.

May be surprised at the results.