Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasthan.

[Katana]

Moin,

Faulad Steel: The method of forging faulad steel was to temper and quench it up to 7 times. This removed all impurities and maintained a certain level of carbon in it. Sometimes extra carbon was added to the billet. The exact process is difficult for me to explain here but it involved heating the steel up to 1200 degrees Centigrade if not more. The result would be a strong yet flexible steel. In colouration it could be anywhere from a blueish gray to silver grey. The latter is considered best. Point to be noted is that faulad steel has no rosettes as seen on damascened steel but fine diamond shaped particles can be made out under magnification. These are called pearlite traces.

Shape: No steel will acquire its own shape. It is beaten as such. See a normal luhaar at work and you will follow what I mean. The final shape is given by the person polishing it or after any fullers etc. are to be provided. Bear in mind that the person forging the blade and the person polishing or working on the blade are more than likely to be two different people.

As an example note the blade of the kindi below:

leheriya.closeup 005 (Small).jpg

If you see the left portion, the steel is dark grey. This is faulad or atleast an attempt at faulad. The lighter coloured portion is damascened steel. The two are welded.

Origin: Each region had its peculatrities. If you see the hilt in Mundaire's sword, it has a 'spine' running down on both sides, where the palm would rest. This is the distinguishing factor in the swords from Alwar, Agra, Kanpur and eastern UP, although it could not be confined to these areas. I have seen such hilts in south western Rajasthan and Malwa too.

'Real damascus' vs. Acid etched damascus: The purpose of damascening steel is not to make it strong or flexible etc. It was originally invented as a means of preventing rust accumulation of steels. The original process was expensive and time consuming. Therefore only the rich or militarily inclined could afford it. In this process the rosettes are raised on the blade and polished off. It is this polishing process that is time consuming. Imagine polishing a blade with sheep wool with your bare hands! Acid etching is a relatively new phenomenon. The blade is tempered and simply quenched in a particular chemical and no polishing takes place post this treatment. This shows up the rosettes and untrained people then purchase them.

Paani chadaanaa: This is a generic term implying the tempering and quenching of a blade. As Rajat says, the quenching could be in either or both water and oil.

-- Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:29 pm --

"Sakela or Sankela is another variation of Damascus in which the Jauhar/ rosettes or the wavy patterns are a bit larger (I do not mean darker or more pronounced) and it is comparatively less older in comparison to Faulad. This is my observation and there might be other explanations too. Most of the Faulad swords have a "fold mark" on the spine but the Sankela swords might not have this."

Rajat, this is absolutely true.

[Moin.]

Thank you so much Rajat and Katanaji. Then the identifying factor to look for in a Faulad Sword is the fold mark on the spine rather than jauhars or pearlite traces which are only visible on magnification. Pardon my ignorance but one things still not very clear is what I've read on the internet and from the posts here is the acid used to riase the rosette patterns in faux damascus or the acid forms the patterns on the blade surface ? If the acid is just used to riase the jauhars that would imply that rosettes or jauhars are inheretently present in the blade due to pattern welding of two or more steels. Still this would not be true damascus as it can only be made of Wootz which is not longer availble. Katanaji how do you have your blades damascened ?

Thanks & Regards
Moin.Thank you so much Rajat and Katanaji. Then the identifying factor to look for in a Faulad Sword is the fold mark on the spine rather than jauhars or pearlite traces which are only visible on magnification. Pardon my ignorance but one things still not very clear is what I've read on the internet and from the posts here is the acid used to riase the rosette patterns in faux damascus or the acid forms the patterns on the blade surface ? If the acid is just used to riase the jauhars that would imply that rosettes or jauhars are inheretently present in the blade due to pattern welding of two or more steels. Still this would not be true damascus as it can only be made of Wootz which is not longer availble. Katanaji how do you have your blades damascened ?

Thanks & Regards
Moin.

-- Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:55 am --

Wow, polishing with Sheep Wool, Ive seen on TV how the Japanese Katanas are polished using wafer thin tiny pieces of polishing stones, but using Sheeps wool to Polish steel is taking the craft to a next level.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Moin,

All the so called damascus swords being made and sold are nothing but pattern welded steel.The pattern is formed by alternating layers of high carbon and low carbon steel.The acid etches the softer steel raising the pattern.There is nothing mysterious about how it is made despite some people telling you about the rocking horse poo and hens teeth that they put in it

Calling pattern welded steel,damascus steel is misleading.Helps people to sell their wares though.

[Moin.]

Moin,

All the so called damascus swords being made and sold are nothing but pattern welded steel.The pattern is formed by alternating layers of high carbon and low carbon steel.The acid etches the softer steel raising the pattern.There is nothing mysterious about how it is made despite some people telling you about the rocking horse poo and hens teeth that they put in it

Calling pattern welded steel,damascus steel is misleading.Helps people to sell their wares though.

Noted with thanks Winnie. Very interesting and addicitve subject this.

Regards
Moin.

[Moin.]

Some fanatstic closeups of ancient indian edged weapons in this website.Though sad to see the country's treasures up for sale in auction houses around the world...

http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/1239.html

A 17th Century Khanda with Damascus Blade

http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/1278.html

A Mughal Dagger with damascus blade and Mother of pearl handle

http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/1279.html

A Talwar and Katar with very large rossettes on the blade, is this Sakela Blade ?

http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/984.html

[Moin.]

Katanaji and Rajat; This should interst you guys, check this out , seller is in Rajasthan. USD 3000/- Chevron Pattern Leheriya Kindi, an exquisite piece...on ebay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Antique-India-Tu ... 2301wt_952

[Moin.]

And the fold mark at the spine that you were referring to, very apparent in these pictures...

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ANTIQUE-INDIA-SW ... 6647wt_952

[Katana]

The 'talwar and katar' that you mention is actually a sosun patta. Yes is sakela, but highly polished through actual usage or otherwise.

About the kindi, I was talking to my sakligar to attempt fullering in our next project, just about the same as in the pics. I'm going to Udaipur and Jodhpur post Diwali and will fix up a few swords. There is a blade maker in Bhindar, about 70kms from Udaipur whom some people are recommending. Lets see what his work is like.

[sa_ali]

Excellent thread, I got it thanks to the moderator making it post of the month. Congrats to moin to putting this thread together.

This thread has once again given excellent reading.

Going through this thread i stumble on 1 idea, not sure if the mods have already discussed it, but this is what i suggest that we should request Katana to design and get knife/pocket knife made for the IFG.

[Katana]

Think up a design and will have it done. If a bulk order is given, the cost would be quite affordable.

However, please bear in mind that it cannot be a folder, neither can it be made of 'faulad'. However, a 'sakela' affair can be made with silver bidri/ koftgari work showing IFG etc. or your name. Ideally gold would be great but the price would be a killer.

[Moin.]

Thank You sa_ali....

It's a great idea, since Katanaji has accepted and if the owners and moderators at IFG accept and since it will be done bu Traditional Rajasthani Sakilgars how about something traditional like a Katar in Sakela Damascus or a Peshkabz with IFG done in Bidri work as suggested by Katanaji

Would be a fantastic IFG memrobilia.......


Regards
Moin.

[Katana]

Am heading out to Udaipur tomorrow. I'll discuss this with two of the sakligars who might be able to do this for us. The engraving is not a problem but one must bear in mind that no two pieces would be alike since it is all done by hand!

[timmy]

On the subject of wootz, I wrote up a little of what I had learned about wootz from academic journals here:

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... ilit=wootz

According to examination of those blades, it is bands of iron carbide that give the distinctive wavy bands to true damascus steel, as opposed to many later variations that sought to duplicate the look of the real thing.

It's also my understanding that the ore bodies somewhere in the vicinity of Hyderabad and a unique composition, which also included traces of vanadium, and that these sources of wootz have been exhausted.

[Katana]

Timmy

You are quite right about the carbides in the iron forming the distinctive formation on the metal surfaces. In practice today most karigars add carbon from other sources while tempering the blanks. Some even go to the extent of adding saw blades (as in 'aaris') but this kind of work is immediately noticed because it makes the metal rather shiny.

As concerns wootz, in earlier times the ore was mined in Barmer and Mewar. This was powdered and washed by the women folk repeatedly, thereby removing any dust, debris and mud. This was then smelted to make ingots or pigs in a clay kiln. It is at this stage that the magic of damascus actually happened, not when the blade blanks were being fashioned.This was the actual wootz.

In the case of Sirohi and swords or armour made there, the general story told is that there was apparently a well there from which they would draw water for the quenching process as well as their daily needs and that this well, a couple of centuries ago was polluted. The well was consequently filled up on orders of the then Maharao of Sirohi and the craft was allowed to die.

However, I am not convinced and I feel that it might have been the British who convinced the Ruler, diplomatically or otherwise, to ban or restrict the trade in ore. So no ore, no swords. Meanwhile, after the cessation of sword making in Sirohi, the art continued in Mewar, Marwar and north Gujarat with ore coming from the Arasuri hills, all with access to ores but the quality of craftsmanship had fallen with emphasis on ornamentation rather than functionality.

There are two points to note in my conjecture. One, Sirohi has always been aloof from the rest of Rajasthan, resisting new comers from the time of Alexander right up to the British. Effectively it has been cut off from the main stream, even today it seems to be a far off place in Rajasthan with none of the 'development' one sees in throughout the state. Secondly, with the advent of firearms in the early part of the 19th century, actual battle swords were no longer in demand and the craftsmen there did not have any patrons who would want gold, silver and jewels embellished on their swords.

As far as Uruku, or Ukku as it is called in North Western India; this was imported in this region. It was not 'endemic' to Rajasthan and Gujarat but it was not in great demand. I suppose examples made from this would be far and few in between. For reasons not known to me, it was somehow considered inferior to the local 'faulad'.

[timmy]

Katana:

I was working from the publications of Dr. J D Verhoeven, who, along with other papers, published "The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades".

Regarding my mention of Hyderabad, this one paragraph from the above-mentioned paper will partially explain my reference:

One of the big mysteries of wootz Damascus steel has been why the art of making these blades was lost. The vanadium levels provide the basis for a theory. Based on our studies, it is clear that to produce the damascene patterns of a museum-quality wootz Damascus blade the smith would have to fulfill at least three requirements. First, the wootz ingot would have to have come from an ore deposit that provided significant levels of certain trace elements, notably, Cr, Mo, Nb, Mn, or V. This idea is consistent with the theory of some authors30 who believe the blades with good patterns were only produced from wootz ingots made in southern India, apparently around Hyderabad. Second, the data of Table IV confirm previous knowledge that wootz Damascus blades with good patterns are characterized by a high phosphorus level. This means that the ingots of these blades would be severely hot short, which explains why Breant's9 19th century smiths in Paris could not forge wootz ingots. Therefore, as previously shown,15 successful forging would require the development of heat-treating techniques that decarburized the surface in order to produce a ductile surface rim adequate to contain the hot-short interior regions. Third, a smith who developed a heat-treatment technique that allowed the hot-short ingots to be forged might still not have learned how to produce the surface patterns, because they do not appear until the surface decarb region is ground off the blades; this grinding process is not a simple matter.

This paragraph is found about 5/6ths of the way down the web page.

This interesting article: Reproduction of Damascus steel ( Wootz ) has an interesting discussion on an academic research project which attempts to make a "damascus blade". I found this work quite interesting, along with the pictures associated with the article.