Should we provide guns to all over the counter ?

[hvj1]

Gentlemen,
Curious to know the majority opinion on the above question.
Since many of us feel that there should be no lines drawn, then why draw a line at age and criminals, they also should be allowed to bear arms.
Looking forward to your views on the subject.
Regards

[pran80]

Hvj1 don't you think that Criminals already have this option of getting guns over the counter

[goodboy_mentor]

My answer to your poll is of course yes.

then why draw a line at age and criminals

A line is drawn for pretty everything as regards to age like passport, driving license, voting rights, right to contest elections, getting employment etc. etc. It is so because of a reason, isn't it? Then why question is being put forth in this matter in regards to RKBA only?

As far as question is related to a person being labelled "criminal", everyone is innocent until proven guilty by court. Moreover what kind of "criminal" you are talking about? Is it these kind of people who have been labelled "criminal" by police(and also by media in many cases) due to filing of false criminal cases against them? http://www.nhrc.nic.in/PoliceCases.htm#h3

If a person is convicted by court for committing heinous crimes then he is anyways going to jail, then where is the question of him being getting access to arms?

Most important of all, no amount of legislation can prevent criminals from getting arms. Are Maoists, naxalites, insurgents, kidnappers, murderers etc. etc. lining up at the doors of "Licensing Authorities" to get arms licenses before committing crimes? Every gun control is done with a purported reason(ignoring the hard fact that criminals never line up for getting "legal" arms) to prevent criminals from getting arms but ultimately as always the law abiding become the real targets of these legislations.

[Subal das]

maybe not an automatic ones, but any other type sure. imported also, government can make a lot of money on import charges The whole atmosphere will change for better in the whole country.

that will bring legality to reality, inf act there is a HUGE amount of weapons on the hands of populations which are not licensed, not necessary those people are criminals. Go to almost any home in Himachal, there will be at least one gun. Almost no one have a license.

[spin_drift]

My dear good man, you can not successfully implement the rule of the law, until and unless you have what is called rule according to higher law; which means that no written law may be enforced by the government unless it conforms with certain unwritten, universal principles of fairness, morality, equality and justice....

[Vikram]

Gentlemen,
Curious to know the majority opinion on the above question.
Since many of us feel that there should be no lines drawn, then why draw a line at age and criminals, they also should be allowed to bear arms.
Looking forward to your views on the subject.
Regards

HVJ,

The statement above simplifies the sentiments expressed by some members greatly and distorts their intent.The answer to your question lies in the Indian Constitution and the conditions under which it provides rights to our citizens.

Best-
Vikram

[shadow]

Thats a very dicey question HVJ.

Since you have asked personal opinions of the members, am giving mine at the cost of probably getting spanked by the whole community here. But am exercising my right to free speech here

My opinion here cannot be conclusive, as am trying to weigh both scenarios namely OTC and non-OTC.

Lets take first case scenario wherein arms are available freely OTC.

While terrorists, maoists, gangsters etc. are one extreme of the anti-social community, there is another extreme of wannabes whose lives start with chain snatching, pickpocketing, burglary etc. While even to them illlegal arms are accessible freely, they still prefer sticking to knives & may refrain from carrying a gun, simply because while they may get away with a few days imprisonment if caught in the act with a knife, they may still either be scared / hesistant of carrying a gun or since they are at the lowest grid in the goon world may have no access. Poverty is one of the reasons for crime to seep in to them from adoloscent age. Not that I have done PHD on criminals, its just my logical thinking.

Now lets move on to yet another section of the society - youth politicios of the country (am refering to party workers & not leaders). As it is in Mumbai there is enough nuisance of these parties whom I wouldnt want to name for obvious reasons, thankfully their aggression & communal / political clashes have been limited to stone pelting & using sticks & rods. Inspite of availability of illegal arms, they still stick to conventional methods. What could be the reason - probably again inaccessebility of guns or probably fear of carrying one without licence??

Its now time to talk about a section which constitutes majority population in India - youth! The wannabe attitude of being seen as uber cool is in the DNA. They have the aspiration of buying everything that is accessible to them from bikes to gadgets to cars. Majority of fatal freak accidents off-late has happened in this age group. While many of those who are well-connected do move around packed, there are thousands others who aspire to get to hold the piece once (I belonged to the latter when was a teenager & continue to strive to hold an actual firearm. Many a times I did walk upto a constable to request to see it just once, but have the fear of what if he thinks am upto no good ).

And then there is a community who are responsible gun-owners whether for sports or SD. But while its controlled & atrociously expensive, they still have access to guns as they hold the inevitable "Brahmastra" - licence! With all due respects, am not discounting the fact that they did have to face great deal of odds & had to go through the grind to get one. The hard work did pay off & you do have the licence and the gun

If we were to declare free arms policy, what would be the results with the first three communities cited above considering they could just walk into a store & buy a gun of their fancy like a toy that to legally! The plastic cards have spoilt us enough so affordability will never be an issue. And for those whom CC companies never entertain, its just a case of picking another pocket or snatching a chain & getting means to buy their weapon of choice FREELY!

We need to understand the history of India before comparing ourselves to countries where free arms policy exists and firearms are available literally in Walmarts (pun intended!). How many times have come across clashes of political parties on streets or for that matter throwing chairs, mikes & punching each other in the assembly sessions? In their history of independence, probably a handful of such cases. Am not talking about terrorism which claims lives world over, am just refering to incidents above to do an apple-to-apple comparison. Though we are one nation, rich in culture & heritage, we are internally divided state-wise. A north Indian get bashed up in Mumbai at whims & fancies of a political party, a west Indian gets hugely discriminated in south India (this is from my personal experience living all those years in ChennaI), and we thought Australia was the racist country. Again, very few or probably no such example in US where people in East coast racially discriminate people from West Coast to the extent of physical abuse. So our country's socio-cultural-political scenario is very different from other countries.

Am I saying then the existing policies are right and that this community should not exist and that our fight has no cause & RKBA is a fallacy? Not even an iota bit.

My pure intention here is evaluate both the scenarios.

The case scenario of it not available OTC is the present state and hence no point in elaborating on the same. Yes, lines should be drawn, dont we draw lines for our kids?? But lines not based on class, caste, creed or section, lines that are objective. Not that currently its not objective. "A person who is above 18 yrs with a sound mind and no criminal background is qualified to get a firearms licence."

Unfortunately it has become subjective and thats where infestation of red-tapism and corruption is breeding. How can the same be rectified to be more objective - well thats what RKBA is all about and NAGRI is fighting for!

To this community, who have qualified as per the above criteria and holds a valid licence, should arms & ammunitions be available OTC. By this I mean lifting a ban on imported arms & ammunitions, removing the cap on quota of ammunition to be used in a year and organising training camps so that at some point they could come to the rescue of the country not necessarily at the borders. As far as restriction on number of firearms one can hold, am not too sure if thats a good or a bad thing and hence cannot say much on the same (especially since I dont even have one ).

Rest, you gentlemen & ladies (are there any on the forum) are exponents in the field and whatever I may have stated above may be absolute trash. But at the cost of sounding , just wanted to share my two pennies worth.

Cheers,
Rup

-- Mon May 23, 2011 15:27 --

Dear Comrades,

After reading HVJ's statement and Vikram's response, looks like I misfired! I merely addressed the question "Should we provide guns to all over the counter?" without understanding the loaded meaning of the same.

Apologies!

Cheers,
Rup

[hvj1]

Hello Shadow,

Thank you for your response, very well thought out and obviously you have spent a lot of time mulling over the subject. Your response does bring to the fore many issues, which are extremely pertinent. Namely different sections of society and their mindset. It is my sincere hope that those for and against guns being handed OTC, read each others view and TRY to appreciate the opposite/contrary view.

It is the insecurity of the mind that promotes intolerance to other's opinion and or views.

Regards

[goodboy_mentor]

inf act there is a HUGE amount of weapons on the hands of populations which are not licensed, not necessary those people are criminals.

This is indeed a fact in almost every state.

While even to them illlegal arms are accessible freely, they still prefer sticking to knives & may refrain from carrying a gun, simply because while they may get away with a few days imprisonment if caught in the act with a knife, they may still either be scared / hesistant of carrying a gun

First of all I would like to say that knives are no less dangerous in hands of criminals. Are they really scared or hesitant to carry a gun or we are simply projecting our own feelings? The following incident speaks volumes about this question of scare or hesitation "A youth armed with a country made pistol seen standing close to Congress youth icon Rahul Gandhi was detained on Wednesday night at Kasna police station in Uttar Pradesh, officials said on Thursday." Ref: http://gulftoday.ae/portal/fb2d3261-c1f ... 66015.aspx

or since they are at the lowest grid in the goon world may have no access.

In some parts of the country firearms are available for starting at around only Rs 200, it does not need someone to be a "goon" of any grid to get these guns, they are easily available to anyone who makes some effort to find out. It is a common knowledge that many people from respectable backgrounds also keep these guns for self defense because getting legal guns has been made next to impossible by government, their price is beyond the reach of most common people and bureaucratic hoops are practically endless. If you do not believe me then read this:

"A 42-year-old woman was arrested at the Delhi airport for carrying a country-made pistol and live ammunition in her cabin baggage.........Her husband, who is a customs official, lives in Mumbai, where she was going to meet him. Her father was murdered sometime ago and that could be a possible reason behind keeping a firearm as a means of self defence, he said." Ref: http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13922

In most of the cases the sellers of illegal arms have full "protection" of local politicians and police. They are also known to offer "discounts" to their regular customers. Why we do not accept the reality and legalize the matter? Where is the problem? Is it our hypocrisy?

It is the insecurity of the mind that promotes intolerance to other's opinion and or views.

Nobody is being "intolerant" but it needs to be seen who has "insecurity" of mind when confronted with idea that arms are made available over the counter. Anyways blood is not going to start flowing on the streets if arms are made available over the counter since they are available "over the counter" to those who desire even today.

[nagarifle]

even the arms act section 14 is a good one as long as it is practiced as is and not as babus wants to.

we need to have some control otherwise we will go out of control, age limit is needed, metal cases and criminal with crime record under 5 year after jail should not be given, alongside politician and policy officers etc should not have arms license as they tend to have armed security already.

[winnie_the_pooh]

No.Only hvj1 should be allowed to buy guns across the counter.Why? Because he knows that he is not a criminal.About the rest,how can you be sure?

[shadow]

inf act there is a HUGE amount of weapons on the hands of populations which are not licensed, not necessary those people are criminals.

This is indeed a fact in almost every state.

While even to them illlegal arms are accessible freely, they still prefer sticking to knives & may refrain from carrying a gun, simply because while they may get away with a few days imprisonment if caught in the act with a knife, they may still either be scared / hesistant of carrying a gun

First of all I would like to say that knives are no less dangerous in hands of criminals. Are they really scared or hesitant to carry a gun or we are simply projecting our own feelings? The following incident speaks volumes about this question of scare or hesitation "A youth armed with a country made pistol seen standing close to Congress youth icon Rahul Gandhi was detained on Wednesday night at Kasna police station in Uttar Pradesh, officials said on Thursday." Ref: http://gulftoday.ae/portal/fb2d3261-c1f ... 66015.aspx

or since they are at the lowest grid in the goon world may have no access.

In some parts of the country firearms are available for starting at around only Rs 200, it does not need someone to be a "goon" of any grid to get these guns, they are easily available to anyone who makes some effort to find out. It is a common knowledge that many people from respectable backgrounds also keep these guns for self defense because getting legal guns has been made next to impossible by government, their price is beyond the reach of most common people and bureaucratic hoops are practically endless. If you do not believe me then read this:

"A 42-year-old woman was arrested at the Delhi airport for carrying a country-made pistol and live ammunition in her cabin baggage.........Her husband, who is a customs official, lives in Mumbai, where she was going to meet him. Her father was murdered sometime ago and that could be a possible reason behind keeping a firearm as a means of self defence, he said." Ref: http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13922

In most of the cases the sellers of illegal arms have full "protection" of local politicians and police. They are also known to offer "discounts" to their regular customers. Why we do not accept the reality and legalize the matter? Where is the problem? Is it our hypocrisy?


Dear GBM,

Sir, I accept each & every counter-point of yours with due respects. Yes, people at large have started keeping illegal firearms for SD as they know that acquiring a licence is impossible for a simple citizen with no affluency whatsoever. You have rightfully cited two examples of how these arms have started reaching common citizens with no criminal background whatsoever including the lady who was caught at the airport.

What am failing to understand here is if we were to strategise a proper approach & advise the government on amendment of Arms Act, should the agenda point be declare India a free arms nation or should it be to iron out the concerns pertaining to grant of arms, responsible gunownership, abolishing ban on import etc? If it is the former then gentlemen at the cost of sounding more realist than pessimist let me say, it will not happen in near future . A goverment which has not been able to be convinced of the fact that citizens have a right to defend themselves, their families & their properties and take that as a personal ego stating that we have police in place to do the needful; are we expecting the same government to actually announce India to be a free arms nation??? Am not sure of the fact whether there would be a blood bath in the street, but am sure there would be a mental blood bath & war in the assembly. If the ruling party even dreams of declaring this policy, they will be brought down the same day by opposition, and if its vice versa, then the policy will be out of the window by the ruling party.

IMHO, we should take one step at a time and try the myths related to RKBA and try & advise the government to first amend the Arms Act in favor of RKBA. Probably once that's done, and as per statistics, there is no increase of even 0.0000000001% accident / crime involving a licensed firearm, can the next proposal of looking at availability of arms OTC be considered.

However I would still want to reiterate the fact that the process of granting should be made objective as per the section. By this there want be any divide be it social, economical or political & everyone will be treated equally in eyes of the law. Secondly to start with only those who have valid licence can avail arms & ammunitions OTC with import ban lifted. This seems to be a rational or logical approach rather than just throwing it open for all!

Let us, members of IFG & NAGRI first focus our energies on influencing the govt to make licensing process easier else the state of affairs would continue to be the way it currently is - chaotic & PPF (personal perception friendly).

Am sure this is a very healthy debate here and each one of us will stand to gain

Cheers,
Rup

PS: No, I do not belong to anti-gun lobby or CAPI, am just a common citizen above 18 yrs, with no criminal record (the only things I have killed knowingly are the mosquitoes who are a threat to my family causing danger of malaria & dengue) and mentally fit (at times I do end up intimidating people with my writing, but its purely unintentional ) and share the very same dream vision, mission of NAGRI.

[thind_aman]

hvj1 and others, Greetings!

I have been following the discussion since a few days and I agree with the point that hvj1 has raised.

I had stated similar in a thread a few weeks back and got a similar bashing from goodboy_mentor and other bearers of RKBA movement here , but sadly, I wasn't convinced.

I would like to share a couple of incidents here:

I was in a Gurgaon Pub a few years back when the mall owner's son fired in the in front of the door of the pub just because a guy objected to him teasing his girlfriend. This guy had a licensed revolver.

A few months back, A prominent Jalandhar politician's nephew killed a well known hotel owner by firing at him. He had a licensed firearm, and so did two of his accomplices.

Apart from these, we read about and witness incidents of road rage, fights over trivial issues etc. every other day, involving 'responsible' citizens who are not criminals. Just imagine if all these angry young men of India had a firearm.

In my opinion (honestly), I believe that the licensing cannot be and should not be done away with in India as, I think that an average Indian man is not sensible enough to handle a firearm.

This is bound to raise a lot of eyebrows, but just think about it, look around yourself, look at the cab driver, the angry college student, the auto-rickshaw walla, do you think they can handle it, I don't think so. In a country where people let the victims of road accidents bleed and die on roads, life hold little value.

It's not that I don't want things to be the way RKBA proposes, It's just that I think we as a nation are not ready for it yet. We need to educate our citizens first. We need to first teach them the value of life. We all look up to countries like USA when it comes to guns, but where do we stand in terms of gun education, handling, safety etc.?

A lot has been taken care of before we can even think of selling guns over the counter.

Regards,
Aman Thind

[shadow]

This is bound to raise a lot of eyebrows, but just think about it, look around yourself, look at the cab driver, the angry college student, the auto-rickshaw walla, do you think they can handle it, I don't think so. In a country where people let the victims of road accidents bleed and die on roads, life hold little value.

Well said!

[jonahpach]

This is bound to raise a lot of eyebrows, but just think about it, look around yourself, look at the cab driver, the angry college student, the auto-rickshaw walla, do you think they can handle it, I don't think so. In a country where people let the victims of road accidents bleed and die on roads, life hold little value.

Well said!

I believe this and the incidents of using guns to intimidate people will continue to occur as long as the owners of guns are the priviledged few.. If they knew that the other person could as well be armed, they would think twice before using their guns unnecessarily!