Holland and Holland 30 Super Double Rifle

[Mack The Knife]

I have seen some pretty slick (very fast and accurate) bolt work but it's no where near as quick as a double gun (haven't seen a double rifle in use where the second barrel was called for).

What does matter is using what you are used to.

Mack The Knife

[penpusher]

Better still get a pair of DB rifles .That ways you can have a 3rd and a 4th shot as well (If your gun bearer will stand by you )

Take care,
penpusher

[Grumpy]

Nothing can produce a second shot as fast as a double rifle. The problem with bolt-actions is that in panic - or excitement - it`s too easy to `short stroke a bolt action. Mehul and I have a friend, Walter ( `Old Sarge` ) who is a very experienced hunter - he`s `on Safari` in South Africa as I type this - who once short stroked a bolt action in South Africa......happily the Buffalo was heading in a different direction after being hit by the first shot !
Custers` major problem was not so much that his troops were armed with inferior weapons but that he was a glory-hunting fool. It`s quite remarkable how American attitudes to Custer have changed in my lifetime - when I was a child he was still regarded with reverence. From hero to zero in forty odd years.

[sat]

I too feel nothing can produce a second shot as fast as a double rifle. I have heard of a reliable bolt action jamming due to a twig while the owner was cycling the bolt in thick jungle. As a kid I too have 'short cycled the bolt' under pressure. I prefer a double for DG.

I gather there were a few people who used a pair of double rifles, one of them was Late HH Kota, he used a pair of .465 doubles, an excellent shot, he is reputed to have placed the 2nd shot on DG within a few inches of the 1st shot. I have spoken too & met people who were witness to his shooting. He used to also predict with fair amount of accuracy how a tiger would react in a beat. The kota family has some amazing footage of tigers & the big shikar camps of the old days.

Late HH Kota (& his friend Kalyan Singhji Koela using a .470 double) put his pair of DB rifles to good use to stop a charge after his american guest injured a wild Asian buffalo.

Another excellent shot was the Late Maharawal of Dungarpur. I am told he used his trigger finger for the 1st shot & middle finger or long finger for his 2nd shot. His African trophy collection at Udaibilas Palace, Dungarpur is considered the best in India. Well worth a visit.

[penpusher]

Just a thought and totally unrelated to the issue.What was the condition of the 'Praja' while the Indian Princess( they were not allowed to refer to themselves as royalty in correspondense with the English crown.All their titles were only for the benefit of their 'Praja'. Something that their descendents now conveniently forget ) went around the world shooting 'DG'

Sorry, just gets my goat all these titles.I mean isn't it unconstitutional to use them the way many of the 'former Royals use these days. Some of them were good rulers,but they were the exception rather than the rule.Opening a solitary school or college is not progress. Undoubtetdly many were good shots and avid hunters. Just something to do to pass time besides accumalating wives and building palaces as 'relief work'.Now who would have thought of that. Most wasted their lives with nothing to show for at the end of it but a brood of children,all vying to obtain legitimacy from the British resident as the heir to the throne.They lost all right or legitimacy as rulers after becoming the vassals of the EIC and should thank the uprising of 1857 for saving them for another 90 years.Had the oportunity to enjoy the hospitality of the descendant of the self proclaimed ' Pope of the Hindus'. Did not extend beyond a glass of water. You would get better hospitality from a simple villager in Punjab. Later on he sent an invitation for dinner. Did not go, considering the extent of hospitality we had enjoyed earlier.Here I go again.

Take care,
penpusher

[cyrixoutside]

well what is the difference between the royals of old and the royal of today i.e M.P's, M.LA's and minsters ?

i can not see much difference.

the praja still suffers.

and they are still accumaliting wives.

what about the ex university president, who drives around town with a "Ex University President" board on his car 5 years after he ceased be president.

and all such other ex and current public representative who drive around with such boards - are these not titles as well.

alteast palaces built as relief work got built, what about the relief works of today which exist on paper only.

the new rulers have palace as well. we have a 120 crore vidhan sabha here in japiur built in the late 90's for all the M.L.A's to indulge in their gali galoch

and it was built by ashok gehlot ?

nothing has changed between the royal of the old and the royals of new, except perhaps the old royals had finer tastes.

rajat

[eljefe]

God Bless you John,
The double rifle is a piece of art which will never be rivalled by any other..
I short stroked a 303 in a national level comp for a prone shoot off at 200 M and won it ONLY because it was a 303 smellie and I could correct it with minimal effort... now you know the deep and abiding respect for the rear locker...I short stroked a 7mm MS on a impala and ended up with no steaks for dinner!
As for a double-, have used 375, 470, 476, 500BP and 450/400J and the deep sense of confidence cant be rivalled.Early on started using the PH trick of having 2 spare cartridges in the web space of Left (non dominant) hand , gave me instant reload and I agree-ejectors and slings have no place in a heavy double for DG..Have taken a couple of 'charges' in my mad youth and in retrospection, there was no sense of anything but -this is what I came here for and I'm going to finish this job-yes the breathing might have been a little short after the event, but not for a moment was there any doubt over the capabilities of the double.
God Bless all here
Axx

[Mack The Knife]

I agree-ejectors have no place in a heavy double for DG..

Sorry Asif but the days of Pondoro and Co. are long over when the 'ping' of an ejected shell gave your position away when shooting tuskers whilst being in their midst.

Today's DG hunting is very different and the provision for a faster reload for a visiting sportsman, the majority of whom have no where near half the experience of the old boys, is worthy of consideration.

Is your opinion based on nostalgia or something more practical? Curious.

Mack The Knife

[eljefe]

HI Mack The Knife,
Not worried about the ping-more about the damned thing breaking and leaving me up the creek in a chicken wire canoe!
Was taught gun handling with a double, no sling or ejector-continued that way -on paper and targets.handled a double O/U 12 with ejectors, but the clays decided not to charge and headed NNW, while empties went SSE-impressive performance.
The only time I ended up with a legal DG was a buff in SA-unfortunately, not with a double, as i would have wished, but with a 458 CZ bolt.Common as peanuts in S.Africa...
Only thing that might charge me now is a snake-hopefully I 'll have a snake hook?
Reminds me, lets check out the 450/400 in Sep-kind of firming up, the travel plans.
Best
Axx

[Mack The Knife]

Not worried about the ping-more about the damned thing breaking.

Valid point. I for one, wouldn't want to go up against Sod's Law.

Reminds me, lets check out the 450/400 in Sep-kind of firming up, the travel plans.

Delighted to do so but I thought you were going to be in the U.S. then?

Mack The Knife

[mehulkamdar]

While ejectors were not as reliable in the early years when double rifles were being perfected, their design came a long way very fast. Boss have a design which works even if the ejector breaks and if gun prices are anything to go by, ejector guns sell for much higher prices than extractor guns these days. In any case, in an extractor gun all you have to do is raise the barrels and let the cases fall out, not a particularly difficult thing to do with the traditional nitro express rounds, but an impossible task with the modern high pressure rounds.

Mack The Knife, John Taylor actually talked about the reliability of the then newfangled ejector guns saying that if a shotgun fitted with them could shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year, there was no reason why they should not work perfectly for the few hundred shots that a double rifle would use his gun for. I think Charles Austyn quotes him and discusses this - or it could be Rob Adam. I don;t have my references here and am not sure. The "ping" controversy is much earlier and dates to the Bell era if I remember right.

Cheers!

Mehul

[Mack The Knife]

Mack The Knife, John Taylor actually talked about the reliability of the then newfangled ejector guns saying that if a shotgun fitted with them could shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year, there was no reason why they should not work perfectly for the few hundred shots that a double rifle would use his gun for. I think Charles Austyn quotes him and discusses this - or it could be Rob Adam. I don;t have my references here and am not sure. The "ping" controversy is much earlier and dates to the Bell era if I remember right.

Mehul,

I think what Asif is getting at is the probablity of the ejector failing just when you need it most.

Perhaps my memory is failing me but as I recall, Taylor was decidedly against the 'ping' caused by ejectors in his book Big Game and Big Game Rifles.

Either way it's a moot point if one is using modern high pressure cartridges as you say.

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

I`ve shot literally hundreds of thousands of cartridges in ejector shotguns and have never had an ejector fail - even in guns well over a hundred years old. I`d have no qualms in using an ejector double rifle ( which nowadays might be used to shoot a couple of hundred rounds in a lifetime ) and would prefer to have them.
Talking about the .375 H&H : I`ve just had a variation for one put on my Firearms Licence..........and I know of a very nice - and very inexpensive - Ruger No.1 ........... which is a single shot falling block. If you can shoot one shot is all you need.

[Mack The Knife]

If you can shoot one shot is all you need.

If a single shot is all I had then fine but given the choice, it would be a double or magazine rifle for DG anywhere in the world.

One shot, one kill is a laudable idea and one that needs to be pursued. However, we are all mortal.

Yours prudently.

Mack The Knife

[eljefe]

"Git as close as ye can, then git 10 yards closer!"