The largest army in the world?

[xl_target]

Pardon me for being so thick headed but would like to know how would a traditionally armed society would help us combat terrorism and criminals? Easy gun access opens a flood gate wherein everyone has access to guns/ammunition unregulated. In our country with so many people without basic amenities like food/clothing and water will not unregulated gun law lead to anarchy?
My father used to tell me about driving any vehicle "Driving is a privilege not a birth right" In our country where we can't regulate underage/drunk driving (leading to horrendous incidents) how can we assume that throwing open the door to anyone who wants to keep a gun will make our country a better place.

Don't you feel that a middle way needs to be found?

Let me address your points one by one.
1. How does a traditionally armed society help us combat terrorism?
a. In most states in the US, what transpired in Mumbai, would be shut down in short order. Many civilians are armed and are legally allowed to defend themselves and their the lives of their fellow men. In some states like New York or Illinois, the terrorists would probably succeed as very few people are allowed carry permits. You are not going to stop someone flying an airplane into a building as most people don't have shoulder launched anti aircraft missiles and all the citizens on a commercial aircraft have been disarmed by the law. There have been several cases of school shootings but here the law disarms the general public in a school but not criminals. Remember, a law only affects the law abiding. Neither Terrorists or Criminals care about the law, nor do they follow it.
b. How do we combat crime? See here,here and here

2. Will not unregulated gun law lead to anarchy?
Most places that allow their citizens access to firearms, don't do so in an unrestricted fashion. In the US, if you have been convicted of a Felony, you cannot own a gun. A law abiding citizen with no criminal record should not be impeded if he would like to own a firearm. If I want to buy a handgun, I have to go through a background check before I will be approved. In India, as things stand now, the only people with unrestricted access to guns are the criminals (obviously, apart from Police and the armed forces) and politicians (hmm, see the similarity there?). People who follow the law have numerous roadblocks and impediments put in their way, discouraging many. If a person is law abiding before he gets a firearm, it is quite likely that he will still be law abiding after he gets a firearm. Just being in possession of an inanimate object is not going to change a persons nature. Guns are not some magic drug, elixir, panacea, kryptonite or whatever. They are just tools.

3. How can we assume that throwing open the door to anyone who wants to keep a gun will make our country a better place?
Will it make it a better place? Who knows? Do passing more restrictive gun laws make it a better place? If so, tell me how?
However, the availability of arms, will give the average Joe the ability to defend himself and his family from the unscrupulous elements in society.
Once again, gun laws only affect law abiding citizens. They have no impact on Criminals.

[vrohan59]

@Subal
You MAY HAVE BEEN on service with the Russian army 10-15 years back,I'm in Russia now,have been here for the last 8 years,and I'm in very close contact with army officials,and I work for one unit as a surgeon in training,so I guess I know what I'm taking about.The 1 year conspription rule was enacted 3 years back.The part about medical colleges having army faculties is true,but they DON'T undergo any specialized training.And the part about commendante,I am present every year in their recruiting drives,like I said don't believe all you read in the papers!Another correction,even common soldiers are on contract,not only praproshiks and officers;only difference being the so called "kontraktinikis"serve in elite units. btw where did you serve in the Russian army?
Rohan

[Subal das]

@Subal
You MAY HAVE BEEN on service with the Russian army 10-15 years back,I'm in Russia now,have been here for the last 8 years,and I'm in very close contact with army officials,and I work for one unit as a surgeon in training,so I guess I know what I'm taking about.The 1 year conspription rule was enacted 3 years back.The part about medical colleges having army faculties is true,but they DON'T undergo any specialized training.And the part about commendante,I am present every year in their recruiting drives,like I said don't believe all you read in the papers!Another correction,even common soldiers are on contract,not only praproshiks and officers;only difference being the so called "kontraktinikis"serve in elite units. btw where did you serve in the Russian army?
Rohan

well you seems know better, seems like things changed in russia a lot.

I've been in Chita voenniy okrug, near China border.

and where are you now?

[vrohan59]

Wow,always wanted to go there!are you from the army?I'm in the Moscow voenni okrurg.

[Subal das]

Wow,always wanted to go there!are you from the army?I'm in the Moscow voenni okrurg.

you should, Baykal is the most amazing place in the world, Selenga river delta great for ducks hunting. But Chita is extremely cold and windy region.

still, I think russians are having biggest military trained man power on earth. Once there was an incident in Mongolia, Chines army invaded some region of Mongolia which was under Russian protection, in fact completely occupied by russian forces. Russian army brought buses to exits of factories in most big cities in the region and put all those mens who was going to home after work into that buses and literally in few days they buildup huge army in Mongolia. Their ability to do that very impressive. I doubt any country in the world are having similar army building capabilities.

[boris]

@Subal
I would like to correct you,in Russia mandatory service is for one year,not two.Don't believe all you read in the media,most of the soldiers/conscripts are busy making "dachas" for generals!Most of the dross in the Russian army don't know how to use radios,most don't even see an RPG,let alone fire one.The only "soldiers"in their army are the ones who serve under contract.
Regards
Rohan

i quite disagree,their spetsanz GRU,alpha,OMON,vympel are doing a great job.

the spetsnaz GRU did a great job with the chechens

[Subal das]

Boris, Russians in fact a piece loving nation, especially if you will compare Russia with USA, more then 700 military US bases around the world, and 7 new (by piece loving Obama) under construction in Colombia. 7 military bases in such small country as Colombia, what for? of course American interests - a lot of OIL in the region!!

that is why Russians are colling White House - Baraks of Obama

Why not construct some bases in India too, sorry no OIL here and India can be easily and in friendly manner manipulated, everybody is corrupt here and Americans the ones who keep the key to data about numbered Swiss accounts. That is why in those washed up leaks, we cant see much info about India.

please hold me some one .... happy new year !!!

[boris]

Boris, Russians in fact a piece loving nation, especially if you will compare Russia with USA, more then 700 military US bases around the world, and 7 new (by piece loving Obama) under construction in Colombia. 7 military bases in such small country as Colombia, what for? of course American interests - a lot of OIL in the region!!

that is why Russians are colling White House - Baraks of Obama

Why not construct some bases in India too, sorry no OIL here and India can be easily and in friendly manner manipulated, everybody is corrupt here and Americans the ones who keep the key to data about numbered Swiss accounts. That is why in those washed up leaks, we cant see much info about India.

please hold me some one .... happy new year !!!

well to think of it i remember talking to an NRI IT guy about all this and he did say that the yanks and brits for no doubt cause hell lot of trouble as superpowers and are a big pain,he the said now you think that this guy makes his living in the US and still says all this but this one factor of the job market there giving better salaries outweighs the moral policing they do around the world because for a civilian making a living comes before everything.

i couldnt agree more.

[Sakobav]

Subal Das

"oris, Russians in fact a piece loving nation, especially if you will compare Russia with USA, more then 700 military US bases around the world, and 7 new (by piece loving Obama) under construction in Colombia. 7 military bases in such small country as Colombia, what for? of course American interests - a lot of OIL in the region!!"

We are going off the track. Lets not be too judgmental about matters which are beyond the scope of this boards discussion.
US has shouldered its fair share of burden and responsibility of a super power out comes were great and some times bad. Good - Marshal plan post WWII in Europe, South Korea,Kosovo/Serbia,eradicated Drug lords in Columbia etc Bad - Afghanistan policy in 80s, Iraq. But for now in Afghanistan - the burden financially, sacrificing young lives and incurring long term loans fiscal deficits is borne mostly by US and few of its allies even though Afghan issue impacts all the free societies in the world. While China is the biggest beneficiary of all this read economy/foreign trade/bases - they arent exercising their leverage either in Pakistan or Iran.

Columbia was pretty much run over and at mercy of drug lords. There is a great documentary showing son of pablo Escobar atoning his fathers crimes by reaching out to victims of Pablo's assassination ..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/no ... gs-victims

Again one size doesnt fit all as political scientists said the best form of governance is benevolent monarchy - an oxymoron statement ..

For now lets get back to cleaning and discussing guns. Since you both guys lived in Russia what are the gun owning rules ? is it easy to procure a license and hunting permits?

Best

[boris]

i do have a russian profile name but havent been there.

[Subal das]

For now lets get back to cleaning and discussing guns. Since you both guys lived in Russia what are the gun owning rules ? is it easy to procure a license and hunting permits?

my info may be 10 years old, but as far as I remember:

- license was not required, to buy weapon, certificate from police and psychiatrist conclusion about mental health and (not sure now) eye doctor ophthalmologist certificate. but now licenses also been introduced.

- no hand guns for civilians, if you working as a guard then possible

- for home defense shot guns, siaga or semi auto OK, should have safe storage cabinet, cannot carry outside. If you want to move your weapon you should get permission from police. No rifles for civilians other then hunters.

- hunter need license also, hunter can buy rifles after some time if he is OK with shotgun. to become hunter one need to become member of local hunters association and in recent times need certificate of hunter. Hunting by seasons, winter on goats, boars, autumn for birds. Hunter need to buy hunting license before he go to forest. Suppose he want to hunt one goat so license will be given for one goat. If forester will catch you without license with rifle in forest, big problem. hunters participating in campaigns again poachers and in wild life stock preservation/ restoration.

- also rubber bullet traumatic hand guns permitted, hands guns which shoots teer gas also permitted and no need carry permit or license.

- knives with hand guard of certain size only for hunters and knife number entered into hunter's ID. foreigner can get hunter ID too.

a lot of imported rifles and shotguns,
http://www.kolchuga.ru/production/rifled/index.htm

[timmy]

Admiral Yamamoto's famous quote about the USA before WW2 went along these lines: "I can run wild for six months. After that, I have no expectation of success." He also was said to have believed that Japan could not defeat the USA, because the USA would not surrender without being conquered -- an impossibility. (At least, it was for Great Britain.) Yamamoto had served as the naval official in the Japanese diplomatic mission to the USA and was quite familiar with the country.

Regarding the ability of an armed citizenry to resist a national government or national army, many observations have been made in this thread that have pointed out valid historical points.

Regarding Castro, I would note that his example works both ways: he demonstrates the power of resistance and the power of government equally.

One very valid lesson that I have not seen cited is one that took place very near to India recently. In this case, a very strong armed insurgency resisted the government quite successfully for a number of years, until the government was able to access sophisticated electronic intelligence and "counter-terrorism" advice from some of the world's best experts. Special troops, guided by modern electronic intelligence, trained in techniques quite similar to those used by their opponents, and authorized to ignore any rights and liberties granted to the civilian population without any international observation, did not take a particularly long time to roll up some of the most feared and capable resistance anywhere on Earth.

Rather than diverting this thread away from its original subject, I feel that the lesson here is that "invincible" is a word that is more correctly used when discussing absolutes applying to ideals, rather than reality.

A determined resistance can cause great trouble for a traditional army or government. I think that this resistance increases in potency when it is highly trained and organized. When other factors exist, such as being able to blend into a civilian population that "rules of engagement" apply to for political reasons, resistance can be quite effective.

My personal feeling is that each situation needs to be assessed on its own merits, and that citizens just owning firearms in and of itself don't represent a significant threat to any government that is reasonably just in the access its citizens have to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[tsheshabalaya]

Don't you feel that a middle way needs to be found?

I think (some parts of) Europe may have found a middle way.
In the mid-1990s, in Belgium, you could walk into a gun shop and pick up just about anything. Even riot guns were 'free sale'.
Then Dunblane (1996) and Columbine (1999) happened. For a while, (continental) Europeans were complacent. These things reflected the Anglo-Saxon way. But after Erfurt, Germany (2002), pressures for more strict controls mounted fast.
A 1991 European Directive to began to be taken much more seriously by Member States.

In the Walloon half of Belgium, a middle way has been found by tightening regulations on the one side massively (from purchase and registration, to conditions for ownership and use), while on the other allowing 'legitimate' shooters to go about their business, more or less as before.

At present, a permit for shooting (or hunting) requires the following:
- a rigorous theoretical examination by the police
- a practical examination, which is unforgiving
plus EACH year:
- a police certificate specifying no convictions in the previous 12 calendar months
- a doctor's certificate of physical and mental condition
Certain weapons (all semi-automatics, riot guns, non hunting/sports shooting calibers) require specific authorisation from the Governor, and these must be renewed every 5 years
Every firearm is registered in a central database.
Last but not least - and something which I find really to be the middle way: to get a sport shooter permit (which also allows purchase of new sporting firearms) you have to shoot 12 times a year, with a minimum gap of 3 weeks between sessions, in the presence of a qualified supervisor, at a recognised club. For verifying presence at the club, they have a fingerprint scanner.

There are some imperfections and criticisms, but I believe something along these lines could be adapted to India, and may be better received than the relatively 'free' system in the US.

[nagarifle]

oh gents of the forum. least known fact, here is one, the Brits never defeated the naps. so they asked the naps to join them and they did, what a good marriage that made, regardless of the impending divorce.

if any army relays on hi tech, then the question arises " what would they do once the hi tech fails?" in Vietnam the yanks deployed many hi tech gadgets which was defected by very simple methods.

we can look at the number and say the larger the number the greater the army? right? wrong. number is just one side of the coin, the other side is the man, if the man does not have the will to win then failure is at hand.

let me leave you with food for thought, " if man can make it, anther one can outdo it" work this one out

[Subal das]

oh gents of the forum. least known fact, here is one, the Brits never defeated the naps. so they asked the naps to join them and they did, what a good marriage that made, regardless of the impending divorce.

if any army relays on hi tech, then the question arises " what would they do once the hi tech fails?" in Vietnam the yanks deployed many hi tech gadgets which was defected by very simple methods.

we can look at the number and say the larger the number the greater the army? right? wrong. number is just one side of the coin, the other side is the man, if the man does not have the will to win then failure is at hand.

let me leave you with food for thought, " if man can make it, anther one can outdo it" work this one out

rebels can adopt to new techs faster then they can be developed. New thechs will make few people reacher but can change much on the ground as ends of any conflict always political.

weakest point of any resistance is that they rely significantly on support from abroad. for example Shri Lankan Tamil tigers been supplied from TN and trained in India for decades. Once support stopped ... resistance gone.