Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

The legal aspects of owning, shooting, importing arms/ ammo and other related legal aspects as well as any other legal queries. Please note: This INCLUDES all arms licensing issues/ queries!
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by full_circle » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:28 pm

winnie_the_pooh wrote: how about looking up about the origin of the state and also the views of some about the rights of the citizens.Something along the lines of people surrendering certain rights to the state in return for certain expectations.
... and declare open the "Lets Try Our Hands at Political Science Games - 2011"???

After two years of teaching "Political Science in Thirty Easy Steps" to Doctors, Engineers and other smart UPSC aspirants, I can safely comment that in my opinion, the discussions will:
> throw up a lot of half-baked, baked and over-baked comment on origins of State, social contracts and how or why the State appropriates the use of force
> tend to discuss threadbare finer points of political theories taken completely out of context
> throw up comments on how Plato or Keynes or some other long dead tormentor of modern day students did not know his mouth from another orifice
> how India is (or parts of India are) the world's oldest democracies ...
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by dr.jayakumar » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:53 pm

oooh,nice words to intimidate anyone full_circle.just be simple and think as an ordinary human INDIAN without a knowledge keynes and pluto.india is not a democratic country.we are simple beings with some simple idea about freedom,won in 1947.why still we have to face the same law?we might all well stayed with the british,i feel,by now they would have let us buy and be what we want. :oops:

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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by full_circle » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:08 pm

dr.jayakumar wrote:intimidate
???????????????????????????
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:24 am

Fundamental Rights are rights guaranteed to citizens only against the State in its Executive, Legislative or Judicial forms.
Fundamental Rights are guaranteed not just to "citizens only", they are equally guaranteed to both the citizens and the State. Whenever a case is filed against any citizen or the State in court of law, both have equal protection of fundamental rights.
If I recall correctly, the Preamble is to be used to interpret the Constitution, and by itself does not grant any rights or impose limitations.
Yes the Preamble can be used to interpret the Constitution. Nobody is saying that preamble is guaranteeing any rights or imposing limitations.
nothing in the Constitution of India including the Preamble guarantees the right to keep and bear arms to civilians.
Absolutely incorrect. Just think about the meaning and implications of what you are saying. Are you contending that State does not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms guaranteed under Part III of the Constitution?

Unfortunately the assumption made by you is also the assumption of most of the people, the judiciary, the executive and the legislature, mainly out of ignorance. This ignorant assumption is made on the premise that only enumerated fundamental rights are guaranteed by the Constitution. Not all the fundamental rights are enumerated in Part III of the Constitution but are still guaranteed. For example the right to privacy, the right to self defense, the right to information, the freedom of press etc., though not enumerated are also guaranteed by our Constitution. These rights have been inferred by courts by following the "due process" for interpreting the Constitution. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is guaranteed under Articles 19 and 21. It can be inferred by proper reading and understanding of the Constitution. I would request you to read again http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p117785

In the case of U.S. Constitution, the 2nd Amendment is making a positive obligation on the State by saying "..........the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." This does not mean if 2nd Amendment would not have been there, then RKBA would not have existed under the U.S. Constitution. The other place to infer RKBA is from the 5th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution where it says ".........nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" which is very similar to our Article 21 of the Constitution. And the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. This discussion about inferring RKBA using the due process can be read in detail from US Supreme judgment related to Otis McDonald Vs City Of Chicago. The Supreme Court held that the right of an individual to "keep and bear arms" protected by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is incorporated by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and applies to the states.
Infact, Art 246 and the Seventh schedule (Union list) of the Constitution of India give the Parliament of India exclusive powers to make laws with respect to arms, firearms, ammunition and explosives.
These are not fundamental rights of the State, these are legislative powers. Legislative powers are not over and above the fundamental rights. If you read the Objects and Reasons of Arms Act 1959 and the text of Arms Act 1959 carefully, it will become evident that it has been written in such a clever manner so that it does not become evident to the untrained eye that it is a law written to regulate the fundamental right and also care has been taken that on papers, the fundamental right does not appear to be violated.
Unfortunate, but true. It is a right we have to fight for in the Courts and the Parliament.
I agree, this is the case not only with RKBA but each and every right of citizens. Just take the example of Right to Information, vested interests always keep playing all sorts of games and conspiracies so that it can be made difficult for citizens to enjoy this right.
I have argued my point - the current system rewards merit
I do not want "rewards" first, I want my rights first. Rewards can come later on at their own pace.
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by Vikram » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:41 am

Full circle, you did start a stimulating discussion here. :cheers:
full_circle wrote:
... and declare open the "Lets Try Our Hands at Political Science Games - 2011"???

After two years of teaching "Political Science in Thirty Easy Steps" to Doctors, Engineers and other smart UPSC aspirants, I can safely comment that in my opinion, the discussions will:
> throw up a lot of half-baked, baked and over-baked comment on origins of State, social contracts and how or why the State appropriates the use of force
> tend to discuss threadbare finer points of political theories taken completely out of context
> throw up comments on how Plato or Keynes or some other long dead tormentor of modern day students did not know his mouth from another orifice
> how India is (or parts of India are) the world's oldest democracies ...
Lets please have some of your perfectly baked comments,Full Circle, what kind of a firearm ownership do you envision for Indian citizenry while you continue to enjoy the fruits of the wonderful Second Amendment of the US constitution.

Why should the Indian State should disallow,through its policies, a citizen without deep pockets and a criminal record from pursuing shooting sports? Why should it not allow a common citizen take up shooting as a recreational activity? I just don't want a gun for self-defence or competitive shooting alone.I also like shooting for recreation. I like good guns.As long as I am not using them for illegal activity,why should I be deprived?
That is not what I am even remotely suggesting. But firearms are not general appliances. They can be used very effectively to kill. They have to be, and are, strictly regulated, everywhere. Nobody start off about kitchen knifes and screwdrivers, please. I repeat myself, my vote is for civilian ownership of firearms. There is no need to justify why citizens should be allowed to own firearms. Infact, my stand is that the whole PB/NPB idea should be scrapped. Makes for better logistics if there ever is an emergency.
Aren't your observations full of contradictions? You support gun ownership and you support the lopsided and irrational firearms policies of the country?

You do not wish us not mention kitchen knives? OK. India still has one of the largest numbers of illegal firearms in the world. Pray tell us how many murders are committed with guns, legal or illegal, in India each year? Despite having such large number of illegal guns,why are there such a low percentage of crimes being committed with them? Does possession equate with intent or actual commitment to crime, apart from the illegal possession?

Meritocracy? And you taught political science? Speak of class hierarchies in operations-formulated ,legitimised and licensed by the State. Why should it be easier for a rich person to procure a license and a firearm whereas it is infinitely difficult for one who is not? What kind of meritocracy do we see here? Is this not de facto discrimination based on class?

Do you call a system that is inherently skewed and and staked in such a way that it only helps the rich and the resourceful and not every citizen a meritocracy? I thought we live in a democracy, whether India is one of the oldest democracies or not?

We can play all day along whether firearm ownership is a fundamental right or a privilege.But, when legal firearms ownership is allowed under the Indian Arms Act, why is it not applied uniformly? Why should this be implemented in your meritocratic manner, or what I would call class discrimination, and not according to the letter of law?Have you read the illegal executive directive given out by the MHO to all the licensing authorities? Do you still see meritocracy in operation where certain categories of people have privileges bestowed upon them while others are deprived?

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Vikram
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by full_circle » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:28 am

Perfectly baked? My comments? Hardly WTP... Many many smarter and intelligent minds than mine have spent their lives trying to understand Pol Sc theories, and only managed an insight or two. Me, I am just a cubicle type thinking of how to pay for that next vacation...

I would love a "shall issue" licence regime for long guns, no ammo restrictions, no PB-NPB idiocy... but that is only me, one of almost a billion votes.

Meritocracy is discrimination too, I agree, but at some level, I find it to be a good, and healthy kind of discrimination. And I wasnt talking about granting licences as a feature of meritocracy, just the granting of import permits. I dont see what my teaching Pol Sc (for a measly two years only) has to do with that though...

Privileges being bestowed upon people with "pull" has long been a feature of any society, particularly ours. I dont condone it, but it is something we live with every day. I guess I belong to "work within the system to reform it" club, as contrasted with the "fight the system tooth and nail to reform" club. Nothing wrong with either approach, especially if the goal is achieved.

As a side, how does any one (including the govt or the media) arrive at the number of illegal arms in a country?
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by hvj1 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:39 am

full_circle wrote:HVJ1, the 20 year single malt is on its way :cheers:
:cheering:

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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:59 pm

I would love a "shall issue" licence regime for long guns
Arms Act 1959 Section 13. Grant of licences

(3) The licensing authority shall grant---

(a) a licence under section 3 where the licence is required---

(i) by a citizen of India in respect of a smooth bore gun having a barrel of not less than twenty inches in length to be used for protection or sport or in respect of a muzzle loading gun to be used for bona fide crop protection:
We already have something similar to "shall issue", it is practically not working in India. We have to look at something beyond just "shall issue", rather we should work towards getting this "license raj" thrown into the dustbin. It takes ages, not to mention the trips to High Court, mental agony, harassment and insulting experience, money spent on lawyers etc. to get license under "shall issue". Just read this thread and the judgment of High Court http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 32&start=0 it took almost 14 years for applicant to get to some point nearer for "license".
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by Vikram » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:42 pm

Thanks for your reply,Full_circle.
full_circle wrote:Perfectly baked? My comments? Hardly WTP... Many many smarter and intelligent minds than mine have spent their lives trying to understand Pol Sc theories, and only managed an insight or two. Me, I am just a cubicle type thinking of how to pay for that next vacation...
I referred to your Political Science background because you mentioned it in your post and I expected a little precision in using the word.I saw none.Sorry.
I would love a "shall issue" licence regime for long guns, no ammo restrictions, no PB-NPB idiocy... but that is only me, one of almost a billion votes.
Whether our individual conviction matters is a different thing.But,how accurate are we and the effort towards being accurate in our proclamations are important.
Meritocracy is discrimination too, I agree, but at some level, I find it to be a good, and healthy kind of discrimination. And I wasnt talking about granting licences as a feature of meritocracy, just the granting of import permits. I dont see what my teaching Pol Sc (for a measly two years only) has to do with that though...
Meritocracy is not discriminative.On the contrary, it rewards merit assessed objectively. In the present case, where only a chosen few have access to training and equipment which limits the capacity for those who do not have access but do not lack desire and potential, how is the concept of merit is objective? Or its assessment? Please explain.
Privileges being bestowed upon people with "pull" has long been a feature of any society, particularly ours. I dont condone it, but it is something we live with every day. I guess I belong to "work within the system to reform it" club, as contrasted with the "fight the system tooth and nail to reform" club. Nothing wrong with either approach, especially if the goal is achieved.
Please explain, ''what kind of reform from within ''are you espousing ? I see none in your sentences.Forgive me if I am being dense. While, many of us are asking for a drastic overhaul of the licensing policy,one of the most significant demands is to implement the original Arms Act in letter and in spirit.What do we have instead?
As a side, how does any one (including the govt or the media) arrive at the number of illegal arms in a country?
I absolutely have no idea. But, those numbers compiled by the government and UN still demonstrate what we have been saying for sometime.

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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by full_circle » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:09 pm

Vikram wrote: I expected a little precision in using the word.I saw none.Sorry.
...
how accurate are we and the effort towards being accurate in our proclamations are important.
Vikram, I am sorry I did not measure up to your precision expectation. I had no idea I was submitting a thesis for peer review. Oh, by the way, Meritocracy means "a system in which the talented are chosen and moved ahead on the basis of their achievement". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meritocracy
How is this not what I wrote in the opening post?
full_circle wrote:What I see here is that the system (with other unrelated flaws) by restricting import of firearms, rewards achievement.
Vikram wrote: Meritocracy is not discriminative
I am surprised you categorise meritocracy as non-discriminative. Especialy after your call for precision and accuracy.
Again from MW, discriminative means "making distinctions". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... riminative
Vikram wrote: (Meritocracy) ... rewards merit assessed objectively. In the present case, where only a chosen few have access to training and equipment which limits the capacity for those who do not have access but do not lack desire and potential, how is the concept of merit is objective? Or its assessment? Please explain.
Granting of import permits is based on how a shooter performs in the NSCC, entry for which is determined via Mavlankar, not a politico's recco. Is that not an objective assessment? And how is NRAI or Govt of India or any other organisation responsible if a person who does not lack desire or potential, does not take the trouble and expense of joining a club and practicing, and shooting well enough to qualify for tournaments?
Vikram wrote: Please explain, ''what kind of reform from within ''are you espousing ? I see none in your sentences.Forgive me if I am being dense. While, many of us are asking for a drastic overhaul of the licensing policy,one of the most significant demands is to implement the original Arms Act in letter and in spirit.What do we have instead?
I have already expressed my view on, and my dissatisfaction about the arms policies in India. What is not clear about that?
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:19 pm

Vikram,

The fellow just wants some attention.

BTW, I just remembered that I also had studied Political Science and did pretty well in it :wink:

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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by pkjee » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:50 pm

Hi Folks,
This is my first post!
I think the firearm law(It also includes air arms.) in India is a flaw beyond compare.It shows a lack of confidence in people.It assumes that most people are evil.That the state can protect every body, (notwithstanding the Maoists) so no need for self defense.
The result ? In India, it is the killers who have the gun & the the good citizen is the sitting duck.
Owning guns is like fundamental right.It improves confidence,commands respect,deters hoodlums(& the bribe hungry) and must be allowed( & made easy).
PK Jee

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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by goodboy_mentor » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:27 am

In India, it is the killers who have the gun & the the good citizen is the sitting duck.
Absolutely correct, you have spoken the truth.
Owning guns is like fundamental right.
Owning guns is not just "like" fundamental right but is indeed a fundamental right. This fact has remained hidden from the people. This is the problem. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is guaranteed under Articles 19 and 21 of Constitution. It can be inferred by proper reading and understanding of the Constitution. I would request you to read and try to understand http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p117785
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Re: Arms laws - makings of a meritocracy?

Post by dr.jayakumar » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:21 am

all we need is import of guns to the legal citizens.anything against it is tyranny.

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