Boy Punches Principal

[abhrankash]

Dear all,
With respect to all your valuable views on the corporal punishment,
personally speaking I do agree with Mr.essdee1972

[kanwar76]

Kanwarji,

What you did is an 'insult to national honour', you deserve it.

Yep, somebody in class 6 shouold know all about 'insult to national honour' . BTW just for the record, I was singing national anthem all proper. Only my hands were at back.

I am 33 years old now and still not able to forget that incident so you can make out how these things imact kids.

[Rajat]

Well most people including myself agree that the action taken by the principle / corporal punishment is not right but little has been said about the reaction of the boy. Was it justified, not justified, not in proportion, possible use of alternative means etc etc.

What do you say guys?

In this direction the views of Goodboy have already been voiced and well taken.

Just interested in knowing the views of everyone else. Thanks.

[coolprasanth]

When guys like this principal do things like this not only do they serve as bad role models but also lose the status as the lighthouse for the "lost" children. Its no use finding fault and saying he is wrong and he is right, whats needed is a total revamp of the colonial education system, this education system belong only in history books and museums.

[SYED833]

this boy venting out and reacting this way would not have been because of this one instance..my opinion is, he would have had a few encounters and episodes in the past with this principal,where the boy would have been humiliated,or punished..there would have been a slow build up of pressure on the kid,and this incident was the last nail to go in..pressure is a very dangerous trigger for a kid..it makes them do strange and unreasonable things..shooting in schools by kids,etc..and i remember very well, my friends sister.she hanged herselfs from a hook,because her math teacher said to her,that she cannot get 100 percent marks no matter how hard she tried.she had got 92 percent..she was in 6 th standard..
that says it all..

syed..

[ebenezer]

Kanwarji,

What you did is an 'insult to national honour', you deserve it.

First: While you might think it is an "insult to National honor", the fact remains that he has every right to stand however he may during the singing of the National anthem.

Second: Corporal Punishment is against the law and slapping a student would be considered corporal punishment. Whether you think it is right or wrong, or morally justifiable or against your religious beliefs or whatever, it is still unlawful. For someone who is supposed to teach kids, its a monumental display of bad judgement to break that law in front of the whole school. Just because he is a teacher, he is not exempt from the law.
-

First: One is supposed to stand in attention while singing the national anthem. Hope you are aware of it.
However, my comment on Kanwarji was in a lighter vein.

Second: My argument is corporal punishment shouldn't have been banned at all.

Dear mods, I find my second post on this topic missing and Kanwar's post under my name.
Ebenezer

[IndiansForGuns]

When I was in sixth grade, one of my ENGLISH!? teacher used to bring over 6 feet long ruler to hit with. The last time he used it on some one when he tried to hit one student and ruler hit the ceiling fan.

[xl_target]

Kanwarji,

What you did is an 'insult to national honour', you deserve it.

First: While you might think it is an "insult to National honor", the fact remains that he has every right to stand however he may during the singing of the National anthem.

Second: Corporal Punishment is against the law and slapping a student would be considered corporal punishment. Whether you think it is right or wrong, or morally justifiable or against your religious beliefs or whatever, it is still unlawful. For someone who is supposed to teach kids, its a monumental display of bad judgement to break that law in front of the whole school. Just because he is a teacher, he is not exempt from the law.
-

First: One is supposed to stand in attention while singing the national anthem. Hope you are aware of it.
However, my comment on Kanwarji was in a lighter vein.

I'm quite aware of what one is supposed to do when singing the national anthem. However there is no requirement that Kanwar had to do that. I hope you understand the difference between living in a democracy and a totalitarian society?
As the popular story goes, Lemmings are supposed to run off cliffs. Does that make them somehow more admirable and should their behavior be emulated? While there may be some difference between Lemming like behavior and standing at attention during a performance of the National Anthem, just because one is supposed to do something, doesn't mean that one has to do it. I hope you get my point.

[hvj1]

Well it certainly is a fact, that corporal punishment, in my generation was acceptable, IF AND ONLY IF, one was not always singled out by a teacher with a chip on his shoulder. In my school St. Aloysius - Jabalpur, run by Jesuits, the fathers always mixed kindness in ample measure with small doses of corporal punishment, when our michief bordered on the wilder side and that too after not heeding warnings.
But I do feel that teachers must learn to respect children and treat them with patience. But being a teacher sometimes goes to their heads, abuse becomes normal, frustrations at home can and do spill out on children in school.
My sympathies will veer towards the boy, the Principal, being far more mature, could have handled the situation far better. I think what happened was natural and will serve as an eye opener for all the teaching staff in that school at least.

[ebenezer]

I'm quite aware of what one is supposed to do when singing the national anthem. However there is no requirement that Kanwar had to do that. I hope you understand the difference between living in a democracy and a totalitarian society?
As the popular story goes, Lemmings are supposed to run off cliffs. Does that make them somehow more admirable and should their behavior be emulated? While there may be some difference between Lemming like behavior and standing at attention during a performance of the National Anthem, just because one is supposed to do something, doesn't mean that one has to do it. I hope you get my point.[/quote]

Hi xltarget,
If one is required to do that, then he has to. Kanwar's school required him to stand in attention during the national anthem, which he didn't. Hence the punishment. A school is a place where discipline is taught and where collective rules apply. Forget Father George and the likes. Though it is a part of society, every school has its own sets of rules and regulations. It is the individual's choice to get admitted in a 'liberal' school. If students start arguing your way, then tomorrow they might as well refuse to wear uniforms and listen during class, calling it a democracy. Emulating a particular behaviour, as you said, is a matter of choice, but following regulations is something different. What happens when you stop beyond the stop line at a traffic signal, while other motorists stop ahead of it? You get fined. Can you argue with the cop that you are in a democracy and you can stop wherever you like?

Regards,
Ebenezer

-- Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:51 pm --

First of all, corporal punishment shouldn't have been banned at all as kids, especially, the present generation, are becoming increasingly unruly. Cinema, media and society in general contribute to this. Parents,inculcate discipline and that too, by sparing the rod. Kids just don't listen to 'kind advices'. But at the same time I don't support severe thrashing by teachers.

Ebenezer

This doesnt make sense at all, would you say police manhandling witness and suspects is good? If your answer is NO then the same applies to corporal punishment, if a kid has personality issues its the problem of the parents, if they cant bring up their kids properly then they dont deserve kids (please dont give the usual "they spend more time with kids than parents" BS) ........i dont know why they bother to have kids if all they are prepared is to pay for them to be brought up to their requirements.

Cming to the next perspective , corporal punishment at school is not for the same reasons as home or at least with the kids best interest at heart (at least most schools). they have various motives like school's "standard" "prestige" and many other aspects that give or will give the school a social status......

Finally i dont know why everybody assumes corporal punishment makes them toe the line,have you ever seen or atleast heard from.......ahem .... reliable (you know your relatives friend's relatives distant cousin's neighbor's son) turning into the so-called "mannered" kid after corporal punishment..........it doesnt work that way.....it only makes the kid more cunning in covering his tracks.........
Just my $0.02.......Then again im rambling......

Dear Prashanth,

Cops manhandling suspects and teachers caning students are totally different issues. A cop hits a suspect to either extract the truth or just to throw around his weight, on the other hand, a teacher canes a student to discipline him. But I don't justify severe thrashing as in the case of Father George, neither do I support corporal punishment to make a kid learn. But, mild punishment will definitely work as a deterrant for mischievous kids. It is impossible for working parents to keep tabs on their kids 24x7. Any working parent will agree on this.

Regards,
Ebenezer

[xl_target]

Hi xltarget,
If one is required to do that, then he has to. Kanwar's school required him to stand in attention during the national anthem, which he didn't. Hence the punishment. A school is a place where discipline is taught and where collective rules apply. Forget Father George and the likes. Though it is a part of society, every school has its own sets of rules and regulations. It is the individual's choice to get admitted in a 'liberal' school. If students start arguing your way, then tomorrow they might as well refuse to wear uniforms and listen during class, calling it a democracy. Emulating a particular behaviour, as you said, is a matter of choice, but following regulations is something different. What happens when you stop beyond the stop line at a traffic signal, while other motorists stop ahead of it? You get fined. Can you argue with the cop that you are in a democracy and you can stop wherever you like?

Regards,
Ebenezer

-- Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:51 pm --

IF a student doesn't follow the school's regulations, then the school has a right to discipline him with detention, etc. or in the worst case, expulsion. Hitting a student is illegal. In Kanwar's situation, they could have used an alternative form of discipline but it is against the law for them to hit him. They could not force him to do anything with physical force. They could have complained to his parents, disciplined him in other ways but it was illegal to slap him to get him to do thing the way they wanted him to.
As far as your traffic signal analogy, if you are breaking the law, you deserve the fine. Kanwar broke no laws so your statement has no merit here. A regulation put forward by a school is not the law.
Once again, it is illegal for a teacher to hit a student. Teachers are not exempt from the law. Why do you have a problem understanding that? Even if we set aside the illegality of the act, which we can't, it also shows extremely poor moral character for any person with power over another to abuse that power with acts of physical violence.

[shooter]

I wont even go to the origins of our anthem as it has been discussed here before in a thread long ago.

Just curious to know about it, if you could provide the link to this topic.

Bro trying to search but the ifg search engine doesnt seem to be too efficient. will post as soon as i find it.

-- 20 Dec 2010, 03:37 --

First: One is supposed to stand in attention while singing the national anthem. Hope you are aware of it.

I wonder how many people stand to attention when the national anthem is played in theatres or in the movies.

[coolprasanth]

First of all, corporal punishment shouldn't have been banned at all as kids, especially, the present generation, are becoming increasingly unruly. Cinema, media and society in general contribute to this. Parents,inculcate discipline and that too, by sparing the rod. Kids just don't listen to 'kind advices'. But at the same time I don't support severe thrashing by teachers.

Ebenezer

This doesnt make sense at all, would you say police manhandling witness and suspects is good? If your answer is NO then the same applies to corporal punishment, if a kid has personality issues its the problem of the parents, if they cant bring up their kids properly then they dont deserve kids (please dont give the usual "they spend more time with kids than parents" BS) ........i dont know why they bother to have kids if all they are prepared is to pay for them to be brought up to their requirements.

Cming to the next perspective , corporal punishment at school is not for the same reasons as home or at least with the kids best interest at heart (at least most schools). they have various motives like school's "standard" "prestige" and many other aspects that give or will give the school a social status......

Finally i dont know why everybody assumes corporal punishment makes them toe the line,have you ever seen or atleast heard from.......ahem .... reliable (you know your relatives friend's relatives distant cousin's neighbor's son) turning into the so-called "mannered" kid after corporal punishment..........it doesnt work that way.....it only makes the kid more cunning in covering his tracks.........
Just my $0.02.......Then again im rambling......

Dear Prashanth,

Cops manhandling suspects and teachers caning students are totally different issues. A cop hits a suspect to either extract the truth or just to throw around his weight, on the other hand, a teacher canes a student to discipline him. But I don't justify severe thrashing as in the case of Father George, neither do I support corporal punishment to make a kid learn. But, mild punishment will definitely work as a deterrant for mischievous kids. It is impossible for working parents to keep tabs on their kids 24x7. Any working parent will agree on this.

Regards,
Ebenezer

My point exactly, they hit the students most of the time to show them "Who's the boss", there are lots of ways to make a kid feel for his mistakes and they are much more effective,moreover they instill a thought that only violence can control a person. more over i dont think students are punished for the so called "discipline" issues in school all the time, the fact is, most of the times they are getting punished for 'education' related problems and that is one of the main reasons i said that we need a revamp of the whole education system which concentrates on what the child is interested in rather what their parents/teachers/society is interested in.

[ebenezer]

Hi xltarget,
If one is required to do that, then he has to. Kanwar's school required him to stand in attention during the national anthem, which he didn't. Hence the punishment. A school is a place where discipline is taught and where collective rules apply. Forget Father George and the likes. Though it is a part of society, every school has its own sets of rules and regulations. It is the individual's choice to get admitted in a 'liberal' school. If students start arguing your way, then tomorrow they might as well refuse to wear uniforms and listen during class, calling it a democracy. Emulating a particular behaviour, as you said, is a matter of choice, but following regulations is something different. What happens when you stop beyond the stop line at a traffic signal, while other motorists stop ahead of it? You get fined. Can you argue with the cop that you are in a democracy and you can stop wherever you like?

Regards,
Ebenezer

-- Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:51 pm --

IF a student doesn't follow the school's regulations, then the school has a right to discipline him with detention, etc. or in the worst case, expulsion. Hitting a student is illegal. In Kanwar's situation, they could have used an alternative form of discipline but it is against the law for them to hit him. They could not force him to do anything with physical force. They could have complained to his parents, disciplined him in other ways but it was illegal to slap him to get him to do thing the way they wanted him to.
As far as your traffic signal analogy, if you are breaking the law, you deserve the fine. Kanwar broke no laws so your statement has no merit here. A regulation put forward by a school is not the law.
Once again, it is illegal for a teacher to hit a student. Teachers are not exempt from the law. Why do you have a problem understanding that? Even if we set aside the illegality of the act, which we can't, it also shows extremely poor moral character for any person with power over another to abuse that power with acts of physical violence.

Well, the ban on corporal punishment was imposed quite sometime back and Kanwar would have been in school almost three decades ago. So, it was not illegal at that time. Try understanding that. A regulation put forward by a school is a law of the school and within the school, hence they have the right to punish. I know it is illegal NOW for a teacher to hit a student, but my argument is that it shouldn't have been banned at all.
Ebenezer

-- Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:28 pm --

Dear Prashanth,

Cops manhandling suspects and teachers caning students are totally different issues. A cop hits a suspect to either extract the truth or just to throw around his weight, on the other hand, a teacher canes a student to discipline him. But I don't justify severe thrashing as in the case of Father George, neither do I support corporal punishment to make a kid learn. But, mild punishment will definitely work as a deterrant for mischievous kids. It is impossible for working parents to keep tabs on their kids 24x7. Any working parent will agree on this.

Regards,
Ebenezer

My point exactly, they hit the students most of the time to show them "Who's the boss", there are lots of ways to make a kid feel for his mistakes and they are much more effective,moreover they instill a thought that only violence can control a person. more over i dont think students are punished for the so called "discipline" issues in school all the time, the fact is, most of the times they are getting punished for 'education' related problems and that is one of the main reasons i said that we need a revamp of the whole education system which concentrates on what the child is interested in rather what their parents/teachers/society is interested in.

Punishing a kid if he is not learning will definitely won't work. I myself stand testimony to it. Here again, I will blame parents as well. They force the kid into learning something that would make the family proud. That is sad.
Glad that this topic is gathering steam.

Regards,
Ebenezer

-- Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:40 pm --

Hi xl_target,

The ban on corporal punishment is a recent development. In Kanwar's case, he would have been in school almost over three decades ago. Hence the illegality point doesn't apply in his case. I can understand that corporal punishment is illegal in the present scenario. But what I say is it shouldn't have been banned completely. Mild punishments can be allowed. A rule put forth by a school is the law of the school. In Kanwar's case he broke it, hence the punishment. But as you said, he could have been let off with a lighter punishment. I reiterate that my comment that 'he deserved it' was in a lighter vein. I too don't agree with thrashing and humiliating kids. But some amount of punishment is required.

Regards,
Ebenezer

[Vikram]

I do not know of the particulars in the present case.But,Hollywood seems to have captured the nature of the beast very well in this superbly made film.Please watch it.The story in the press is almost exactly replicated here.

[youtube][/youtube]

Best-
Vikram