Have you ever applied for an Arms License?

[gshardikar]

Hi I am from Pune. I had applied for an additional arms license for pistol/revolver. I already have a 12 Bore DBBL Geco Shotgun which I have inherited from my father. After submitting my file around mid September 2010, my file came to the local police station where I had a very good interaction with the inspector and he said he'll give a recommendation for my license. Similarly the ACP & DCP also gave me the same kind of response. Finally my application reached the CP office. After waiting for almost a month (delayed because of Diwali Holidays and stuff) I got a reply from the clerk that my application has been rejected. When I asked for the reason, he said that you shall receive a letter soon in which the reason will be stated. Fortunately my mother works in the CP office. She will go and try to get the reason from the guy.

Further, I need your opinions on the following 2 options that I have in front of me -

1) Should I meet the CP personally and try and convince her to change the decision ? Meeting her will not be a problem because my mom works there.

OR

2) I know the MLA in my area very well. He is a good friend whi also possesses an arms license and a Walther pistol. He had given me a recommendation letter which I had attached to my application. I went and met him and told him about the rejection of my application. He asked my to file an appeal in the home ministry based on the rejection letter I get. Once the appeal is filed then he said he'll get it done as he knows everyone there.

Pls suggest.

Regds,

Gautam

[goodboy_mentor]

i do know that any case that one takes to court has to be water tight case in you favour, and every lawyer will tall you that you have a worthy case and its winnable, a case not prepared right will end up thrown out.

Also lawyers are two a penny so to speak and their knowledge of Arms Act/ Cons tuition rights are equal to or less then a lay mans knowledge.

A good lawyer who can agrue your case is all so important.

This is the exact reason I have written all this at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p117785 so that one can show this to his lawyer in order to refresh the memory of his lawyer about Arms Act 1959, Arms Rules 1962 and the Constitution, so that he can make a water tight case. If one reads and understands what I have expressed at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p117785 it becomes clear that if you are applying for self defense, then executive has practically no role EXCEPT finding if you are disqualified as per Section 14 of Arms Act 1959 and the role of Police is ONLY to find if they have criminal records on you. If they do not have any such thing, they have to send the report stating the same to LA. LA issues the arms license or if decides to refuse, have to give the reasons in writing as per Section 14 of Arms Act 1959, so that applicant can approach High Court to get is right enforced.

1) Should I meet the CP personally and try and convince her to change the decision ? Meeting her will not be a problem because my mom works there.

You can surely meet the CP(If I understand correct, Commissioner of Police(CP) is your Licensing Authority), there is no harm in meeting the CP. But the main question is what is the apprehension in the mind of the CP that is preventing the issue of license to you? Will you be able to remove that apprehension from the mind of CP? If CP thinks that issuing more than one arms license to one person is a problem then you can try to convince the CP on the basis of the following Allahabad High Court judgment: http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 89#p113930
If CP says that it is because of MHA letter dated 31.3.2010, then you will find difficulty in convincing. IMHO any MHA letter or notification that goes against the provisions of Arms Act 1959, objectives of Arms Act 1959 or the fundamental rights guaranteed under Constitution has no legal meaning. If you want, you can give a try convincing CP based on the following opinions: http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 85#p117785 Probably the CP will be more inclined to obey the MHA order than obeying Arms Act 1959 or the Constitution. Nothing much can be said unless you get the reasons for refusal in writing. Chances are very likely that you will be given some vague reasons in writing like "no threat", "already has a firearm" etc., rather than mentioning the MHA order because this order itself is illegal.

2) I know the MLA in my area very well. He is a good friend whi also possesses an arms license and a Walther pistol. He had given me a recommendation letter which I had attached to my application. I went and met him and told him about the rejection of my application. He asked my to file an appeal in the home ministry based on the rejection letter I get. Once the appeal is filed then he said he'll get it done as he knows everyone there.

"recommendation letter" of MLA has no legal role in the process of grant of license, except creating an impression on police to give a "favorable report" for you, in case there are no criminal records on you with police. I am not able to understand the logic of MLA, as to why does he wants you to go to MHA? If he is saying so because of MHA letter dated 31.3.2010, in my opinion it does not have much legal meaning. You can make your MLA read the following http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 85#p117785 and then ask what he has to say.

[Risala]

Sanjay,

If I have not understood it wrong, it appears from your above post that you are suggesting that people should not to take a legal route. People are anyways always free to take their own decisions. Even if I agree to your opinion for the limited scope of this discussion, may I know what is the alternate to the legal route you are suggesting?

Probably you have not noted the link I provided for AP High Court judgment that was won by lawyer and court is clearly directing the LA to issue the license.

People are free to excercise the options they want including the legal one,but I wouldnt encurage them if they did not have a heavily loaded case as the petitioner in the AP case cited above has and off course he/she are willing to spend the time and money on a good lawyer who can cost a fair bit.

Coming to the AP case....the judgement is open to interpretation and can be challenged before a bench, the judge has only quashed the order issued by the licencing authorites and the appellate where the appeal was made.
Further it has said that they may reconsider the case on merits with compliant time lines,no where has it said that a licence should be granted....though the petitioner in this case does have a stong case.Like I said on another thread an exception rather than rule

Sanjay,

At least I am suggesting a legal route that has fair chances to succeed, if the licensing authority does not issue a license.

What fair chances are you talking about,can you even show me one case where a licence has been grated via a court order.

Before suggesting it to others....Have you tried this route if at all your application was rejected

Sanjay,

I humbly request you to please take this opportunity and enlighten the forum by suggesting a better route, if you have, in case the licensing authority does not issue a license

At your request I shall oblige
Route A.....Become a neta or a babu
if you have trouble becoming one....and miss the bus....then jump the line & take Route B
Get married to one.

Seriously,with the licencing regime getting tighter...there is really no advice one can give to another who makes an application or has one rejected......... except play the hand the way the cards have been dealt......people are still getting their licences made arent they

[nagarifle]

,

except play the hand the way the cards have been dealt......people are still getting their licences made arent they

not if the cards are staked against you then cheat if you can

[veeveeaar]

Good boy, please let it be clear to every one that the SHO ( station house officer) i.e. the SUB INSPECTOR of that particular police station under whose jurisdiction , the applicant's permanent residence comes ALONE has to send a report on the arms license application. PLEASE be it known that many people are taken for a ride by the writer ( H.C.) or other police men that the total hierarchy from SI to S.P .or C.P . has to RECOMEND your case and a pay roll is made.AS PER LAW NOBODY CAN OR HAS TO RECOMMEND.They are all subordinate or ears and eyes of the licensing authority. Interestingly in my case ( 2nd license) the CLERK at the S.P. office got a statement from me which is also not legal and just like like that it was counter signed by the S.P.( recomended) and i got my 2 nd license AFTER A YEAR OF WRITING REMINDERS and legal speak . That is why i am pleading with our IFG brothers to air their experiences so that a clear cut, straight forward route can be suggested. I will soon come out with a do's and don'ts of the arms application process. molesting is done in the guise of frisking . As long as we are ignorant we will suffer like this.

[goodboy_mentor]

Coming to the AP case....the judgement is open to interpretation and can be challenged before a bench, the judge has only quashed the order issued by the licensing authorities and the appellate where the appeal was made.

Every order of court can be challenged, if one can show some valid facts related to the case that have been missed by court before pronouncing judgment. I am telling time and again that burden to justify the denial of license lies on the licensing authority.

Further it has said that they may reconsider the case on merits with compliant time lines,no where has it said that a licence should be granted....though the petitioner in this case does have a stong case.Like I said on another thread an exception rather than rule

Please try to understand the legality of the language of court. Court has made directions to dispose of the matter as per merits of the case("merits" means merits of the case as per Arms Act 1959, practically means as per Sections 13 and 14) within the specified time period. Please read Section 13 of Arms Act 1959, there you will find it talking of "prescribed time". This "prescribed time" is the main cause of problem since no duration of "prescribed time" has been given and court has provided the duration of "prescribed time". This is what is stacking the cards against you, me or anybody. Now without understanding the game that is being played against you under Arms Act 1959, you have accepted a defeat and started suggesting everyone to become a neta/babu or marry the son/daughter of neta/babu which is not possible for everyone.

What fair chances are you talking about,can you even show me one case where a licence has been grated via a court order.

Court cannot "grant" a license, it can direct the licensing authority to finish the work strictly as per Arms Act 1959 within a time duration given by court. Can you show me a case where license holder was not disqualified as per Arms Act 1959 and after the court order the license was not issued?

Before suggesting it to others....Have you tried this route if at all your application was rejected

Without understanding legality of the matter, you have started suggesting to become some babu/neta and the like. You are certainly free to apply this route if you desire, but it is not acceptable to me and many people. I will always prefer the correct path. It is a matter of one's principles and values.
@veeveeaar
Yes you are correct and to the point in what you are saying, but would like to add a loophole in Section 13 about "prescribed time" without specifying any fixed time to dispose of the case, LAs can practically sit on the file as long as they want. There was a case mentioned by one gentleman on this website, where his file was kept pending for almost over 2 years even though police had given the clear signal, just because the Licensing Authority was known to be personally against any kind of gun ownership by people. Applicant had tried approaching almost every levels in bureaucracy, the ministers, MPs, MLAs and so on, but nothing was happening. Ultimately he was thinking of approaching the court. Some people call this cards stacked against them, some people try to overcome this with vitamin m, some people run here and there grovelling before MLAs, MPs, DSPs/SPs and so on and some people go to court. This is the problem, they think that RKBA is not their right but some kind of favor granted to them by the state. This is why I always try to make them aware of their rights by pointing to this: http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 85#p117785

[Risala]

,

except play the hand the way the cards have been dealt......people are still getting their licences made arent they

then cheat if you can

Nowhere in my post above has that been implied Naga...I personally dont advocate it and IFG doesnt encourage it

[SYED833]

the SUB INSPECTOR of that particular police station under whose jurisdiction , the applicant's permanent residence comes ALONE has to send a report on the arms license application. PLEASE be it known that many people are taken for a ride by the writer ( H.C.) or other police men that the total hierarchy from SI to S.P .or C.P . has to RECOMEND your case and a pay roll is made.AS PER LAW NOBODY CAN OR HAS TO RECOMMEND.They are all subordinate or ears and eyes of the licensing authority.

this is not happening,.very recently my file had to go to all of them.,meaning the SI,CI,DSP&of course SP..In between the file movement from CI TO DSP i tried a little experiment.,i.e.i took the file from CI to SP office directly,without going to the DSP office.To my surprise,the file was returned by the SP'c comments to get it signed by the DSP..so,only after the DSP'C signature,the SP accepted it.Dont even ask me the damage to my purse .the law is only perfect on paper.Out there,what they say is the law.
syed.

[Risala]

[/u]. Now without understanding the game that is being played against you under Arms Act 1959, you have accepted a defeat and started suggesting everyone to become a neta/babu or marry the son/daughter of neta/babu which is not possible for everyone.

What fair chances are you talking about,can you even show me one case where a licence has been grated via a court order.

Court cannot "grant" a license, it can direct the licensing authority to finish the work strictly as per Arms Act 1959 within a time duration given by court. Can you show me a case where license holder was not disqualified as per Arms Act 1959 and after the court order the license was not issued?

Before suggesting it to others....Have you tried this route if at all your application was rejected

Without understanding legality of the matter, you have started suggesting to become some babu/neta and the like. You are certainly free to apply this route if you desire, but it is not acceptable to me and many people. I will always prefer the correct path. It is a matter of one's principles and values.

Good Boy
As usual you deviate from the facts without really making any points to confuse people
First off are you being naive or plain dumb
Surely you did not take my Routes A & B seriously...or did you ....that was said in jest'

Secondly once again you are confusing the issue and deviating from the Q.....have you tried the legal route if at all you had applied fro a Lic and your application was rejected...before advocating it to others

Last but not the least....it's very easy to talk of principles and values when one is hiding in the closet using an alias and attempting to fire from someone elses shoulders....we understand the game very well and play it by and within the rules.......the last thing one needs is a lesson in morality from you.

[nagarifle]

,

except play the hand the way the cards have been dealt......people are still getting their licences made arent they

then cheat if you can

Nowhere in my post above has that been implied Naga...I personally dont advocate it and IFG doesnt encourage it

Sanjay i never said or implied that you said "then cheat if you can" i said that. if the cards are stacked against you there is no harm in looking at the reflation in the mirror is it happens to be there.

what that means is that cards = Arms Act- if the authority deny you the licence outside the Act then they have staked it against you. Cheat if you can= go out side the Act that is go to Court because then you are not playing the same game as the card dealers ie the LA who are denying one a licence for no other reason then their own reasons.

[goodboy_mentor]

As usual you deviate from the facts without really making any points to confuse people

I am not deviating from any fact, neither confusing anybody. If someone does not attempt to understand what is being said, he is bound to get confused in already confused situation. If some sincerely makes an attempt to understand, what I am saying it becomes is crystal clear. Please read the reply of nagarifle, he has been able to catch what I am trying to say.

First off are you being naive or plain dumb

Where is the need or any point to make personal attacks and judgments?

Secondly once again you are confusing the issue and deviating from the Q.....have you tried the legal route if at all you had applied fro a Lic and your application was rejected...before advocating it to others

The question put by you is totally immaterial for the purpose of explaining the position of law. Neither I am confusing anybody. Rather I am trying clear the confusion that is already present. For some reasons, some people are not able to understand what I am trying to say and feel that I am confusing them. Nagarifle has very clearly understood what I am trying to say and he has explained in a very precise and to the point manner.

it's very easy to talk of principles and values when one is hiding in the closet using an alias and attempting to fire from someone elses shoulders

Nobody is hiding anywhere in any closet or behind any alias, neither is anybody trying to fire anything from anybodies shoulder. Everyone is wise enough, everyone knows when and how to fire for themselves only. Having a login id that is different from one's name does not mean anything, so many IFG members are having login ids different, does it mean that they are in a closet or hiding somewhere? Moreover we are discussing ideas and not discussing identities of individuals, hence your contention is irrelevant to the point being discussed.

we understand the game very well and play it by and within the rules.......

If you had understood the game, then you would not be suggesting to become neta/babu or marry their progeny and so on. Anyways I do not have any personal grudge against your plan/idea. If it works for anyone, good luck to the plan/idea till it works, until the plan/idea runs out and gets exhausted for the country of 1.2 billion or until all the 1.2 billion people themselves become netas/babus or get married to their progenies.

the last thing one needs is a lesson in morality from you.

Why only the lessons of morality, I am not giving any lessons whatsoever at all. You are welcome to carry on with your suggestions to become neta/babu or marry their progeny and so on. I have no objections. I wish good luck and all success to those who follow your suggestions. Everyone understands everything and are anyways free to choose their way of going about things. Hope I have clarified what I am trying to say and their lies no confusion in understanding by anybody. Moreover I have clarified that I am not at all against your plan/idea, since all the people are anyways free to choose whatever plan/idea suits them the best. Hope this would help in ending this conversation.

what that means is that cards = Arms Act- if the authority deny you the licence outside the Act then they have staked it against you. Cheat if you can= go out side the Act that is go to Court because then you are not playing the same game as the card dealers ie the LA who are denying one a licence for no other reason then their own reasons.

Yes you are absolutely correct, this is exactly what I am trying to tell. Probably you have read and understood what I have tried to say at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 85#p117785

[Risala]

Good Boy
Not only do you deviate from the facts,but you distort them to suit yourself with the aim of misleading people----for a bloke who likes to interpret the law,without even being able to comprehend basic English lang….you are nothing but a TROLL….now run along and check the definition off one and see how easily you fit the bill.
We are done here.

[goodboy_mentor]

Sanjay,
What you are posting is nothing new, it is expected, already you have gone to the extent of making allegations against me to be naive, dumb, now that I do not comprehend English, TROLL etc. to satisfy your ego. It is not unexpected that you may also start alleging something else also in your next post. This is the only thing that is left for someone who is not amenable to logic and reasoning i. e. to start making wild allegations against the other. You can carry on, it hardly changes any facts of law. Neither I am deviating from any facts of law, neither I am misleading anybody about law. Certainly I would not like to be compelled to deviate from the topic of discussion and start discussing something which has no relevance to the points of law being discussed here, just because you have asked. Also I have asked many questions to you which are very much within the points of the law being discussed, you preferred not to answer them but carry on and try to actually deviate from topic by asking irrelevant questions to the points being discussed.

[eljefe]

scary, what the arms act can do? bring on le cafard in winter!
Thats the whole problem.There never was any uniformity in the interpretation of the arms act, after about 84, when the terrorism locus standi kicked in.
Then it was a free for all, all was fair in the guise of desh bhakti.truth was, every one from PS writer to you name it, wanted money, to interpret the 'law' your way.
I have personal and bitter experience when last year, I spent 2 weeks going to the commissioner's office daily ( afternoons were to care for a sick father.)Sat and watched every single applicant pay 'fees' to the clerks-women clerks being more aggro and demanding than males.Was it a case of 'dont pay me and I'll yell rape?" hell yes, call me a MCP, but what I state is what I saw...was shooed away from the desk of a female clerk.something snapped, called a contact, sent to big man's office 3 min later.given a cup of tea, SAME clerk called in, brought my file in 20 min later, I walked out with sale permission, only to be stopped in the corridor by the same clerk, asking for 'fees' for expediting my work! is it sang froid, Bangalore Police style?
What I have to offer:
THERE IS NO UNIFORM INTERPRETATION period
what works for X will not work for Y
what works in one state will NOT work in another.
The real rule makers are the 2nd div clerks
The top brass will want to cover their a** and not take a decision
Dont even bother posting SOP's
Going to court has worked -in the past.Long drawn out ,expensive process.You need a LAWYER, not a ration shop/RTO affidavit filling, black coated succubus.
Both you guys agree to disagree, have a cup of tea and unwind-As a jt commissioner of police once told me- "guns are dangerous, especially with women folk in the house-they are so emotional, anytime, can do anything..."
who emotional? the guns?the womenfolk? my man, you have been spending quality time with the wrong kind of women,methinks
When we were a occupied/colonised ruled/whatever- we fought for our independance.
Now, we are emasculated slaves of mammon. Dehumanised to accept our role as vote banks .
Viva le salt mines-thats our today and tomorrow.

[hamiclar01]

Asif, this reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the lady clerks, on the reception desk, at the DCP licensing office a few years ago.

"Ma'am, my license is due for renewal on XXXX, however I will be unable to apply personally..."
"You can always come back"
"I will be too far away on a job that cannot wait. I have heard you accept a signed power of...."
"...When will you be back?"
"After three months."
"Then why don't you get your license renewed when you return after three months?"
"Will it not have expired by then?"
"So?"