Big Bore Rifle questions - FAO Mehul & Shutzen

[penpusher]

Blue paint-(in the photograph )the blue boxes scratched on the lower part of the face with a ball point pen

Blue paint-(in real life) .....use your imagination

penpusher

[shutzen]

Blue paint-(in the photograph )the blue boxes scratched on the lower part of the face with a ball point pen

Blue paint-(in real life) .....use your imagination

penpusher

HI! I dont have a hardcopy of the pic -its digital and u just need to go to photoshop and do it . BTW have u forgoten abt the 007 part and btw now I have graduated like the credit card sales persons used to come and ask "sir are u carded - Yeah I got two xtra high limit gold card

[penpusher]

The Red Card gets you access to the VIP washroom.

penpusher

[shutzen]

quote="shooter";p="22174"]i think my recent questions got overlooked because of the flood of posts on the thread . so here goes.(again):

HI! Shooter this one I am pounding out again for you buddy * I hope this post sticks*

Gentlemen - I wish to point out that it feels slightly funny to keep posting in a thread entitled "Nana Pataker ...." I mean if the concerned party takes a peek at the thread he will surely not know what hit him anyways since this thread is ongoing so why not and here goes:


next, the way things look right now, ill be in uk for atleast 5 more years.
and yes i am fond of hunting and that is why i want to practice shooting.

Cool ! I suggest that u chk with ur local club (nearest to u) abt paid use of their rifles or chk at the Bisley big bore range regarding use of their target rifles. 5 years is a long time and u can have much fun competing in those 5 years . Well the hunting days r literally over in India - u can only shoot for pest control after getting a PERMIT from the wildlife deptt. Nowadays permits r issued for wild boar and Neelgai in our region. In various countries where a better regimented style of conservation is followed you can get permits for sevral types of game and have fun - But let me warn u that once you turn to dedicated competition shooting - I am talking from personal experience and a broad overview of the shooters I have come in contact with you will most likely give up hunting and enjoy just target shooting. Let me point out that however this is not a rule and rather a personal prefrence

i agree with the stance thing; in fact i dont even rest my elbow while shooting an airgun, lest i get used to it. and i also try to shoot standing uo without support.
practical diff. between hunting and competition shooting


Here I feel we have to understand the diffrences in competition shooting VS hunting l. I am posting what I have leart from exp. and from various other boards this comparison is however my idea of trying to clear the perspective:

1. In competition shooting you are shooting in a controlled ,higly competetive envirionment for score. The shooter is always concentrating on a known fixed target, at a fixed distance where he had zeroed his rifle during his sighting shots - He tries to remain calm and breathes in a manner where he can keep his heart rate under conrol. He tries not to hold his breath for more that maybe 7-9 seconds and tries to execute his shot before that- A good shooter will never try to keep holding his breath for extended periods like say 20 secs or 30-45 secs as this will starve the body of oxygen and this will lead increase in the heart rate -which will lead increase in blood pressure and this increase in BP will even cause the pupils of the eye to dilate otherwise the increaded heart rate will cascade into movement through pulse in the sling , sway while standing, - In short the groups will begin to open up - panic can set in triggering a rush of performance anxiety and adrenalin rush that can ruin the day. The process of loading ,aiming firing has to be done 60 times for record in an normal match + the sighters u fire for setting up all in one hour and 15 mn. time -so generally u haveto perform in a co-ordinated well rehearsed pattern. If the shot does not hit where u want it to u lose out on score and position and look forward to performing better and increasing your performance next time round.

2. In hunting you are trying to stalk and clobber game on foot or in a vehicle . If on foot you are already moving about in generally forest type terrain lugging the weight of your rifle and most of the time your heartrate is higher than normal in anticipation of spotting the quarry. The moment the quarry is spotted there is a adrenalin rush which puts the average hunter into hyperdrive mode then the fun starts : you try and guestimate the distance and try and figure your holdover or under. A good hunter will also try to figure wind and try to compesate for bullet drift at that range. Then comes the important decision of shot placement this decision dictates you to try and get in a postion to execute the shot. you may have to move left or right or lean over or just maybe bend your knees a little to get into proper position to execute your shot. In short in hunting generally the situation will dictate how you can best take the shot. While you are going through all this and the quarry is at a challanging distance a good hunter will also have it at the back of his mind that he should make a clean shot and the results of a mishit can be dangerous or lead to loss of the animal in the forest or a painful end for the animal where ever he loses enough blood to go into shock and die. For the hunter it is important that the one shot he takes goes where he wants and to do that there is no fixed "STANCE or ELBOW POSITION" you could execute a snapshot leaning or crouching forward -you could be taking a shot resting the rifle on your friends shoulder or you could have the support of a tree trunck or a vehicle - What matters in the end is taking a shot with ful confidence using whatever means of support time and situation allow for. eg. If I have lots of practice resting my elbow on the hip and shooting ( ISSF Standing shooting) and I get a chance I WILL use that position because I know the result of using that position and I can execute a better shot. If on the other hand I try a floating elbow shot I may not be very confidaent of my shot as the possibility for movement is greater when ur elbow is extended unsupported and secondly if in the exietment I jerk the trigger the possibility of hte rifle being moved off target is much greater with the floating elbow. So its not that I wont take a free elbow shot but I will try to use the most stable supported position when I get my shot because I might not get a chance for another shot

One very important thing in hunting is the awareness of shooting without a backstop and one should always try to position himself that if the shot misses it does not endanger anyone who may be behind the quarry. A lot many times its a wise thing to drop the shot if there is a chance that the bullet will carry on if u miss. The adrenalin which can totally clobber a competition shooter can help a hunter by helping him bend or streatch or take a position which he could not thave taken normally and shoot.

So in my opinion there is no good or bad position - the position which gets the job done with max. chance of sucess is the best position for hunting so dont get confused and biased over positions and always exercise "mazboot pakar" lest u drop and damage your equipment

However the the wind and mirage ,changing natural light and position of the sun remain a common factor in both competition shooting and daytime hunting.


what are the recommended/ allowed calibres in these competitions. Well In India only ISSF comps are held and u can shoot anything upto and including 8 mm cal. no AP or tracer ammo though

what are good, affordable/ available -both in india and abroad- rifles in each of these categories?

In India only the IOF .315 is available right now however the IOF .30'06 should be launched shortly and u will have a much better chance competing with that. The imported rifles r pretty expensive and most hunting rifles with the tapered sporter kind barrels might not be upt firing 70+ shots in an hour so u need a rifle with a bull barrel or a heavy barrel hunting rifle, besides u might not want to modify the super-expensive rifle to add the peep sights

Abroad you can buy any rifle which takes your fancy - important crieteria - Bull barrel , Crisp trigger which has high degree of repeatability and good sights. However a few manufacturers have been making production rifles specially for competition use this leads to cheaper costs , highly tested and proven product and ease of repairability because the spares are readily avaialble and dont have to be custom fit or made. I have touched upon this topic in my post in the ISSF section on sporting arms manufacturers.

are scopes allowed? (silly question)

ISSF alows only peep sights - spotting scopes to spot your shots r allowed though You have higpower and benchrest comps in a few countries where scopes r also used.


plz recommend some scopes. (see rifles question.)

The "scope" of the above ques. is literally too vast. You haveto set down certain basic crieteria before recomendations : the cal. of rifle, range at which you want to zero it , use of the rifle, how many green ones you want to spend ? and lastly if u have any prefrence for some manufacturers. Lots of sites keep testing scopes of a certain type or cost against the competition and I thing there results should give you a fair idea about what to buy.

well Shooter -Hope this is of some help

[mundaire]

Gentlemen - I wish to point out that it feels slightly funny to keep posting in a thread entitled "Nana Pataker ...." I mean if the concerned party takes a peek at the thread he will surely not know what hit him anyways since this thread is ongoing so why not and here goes:

Good point! This thread has been going waaay OT for a while now..... Therefore I've now split these posts from the original (Nana Patekar) thread and put them under a new (more de.scriptive) heading...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[shooter]

first of all, thanks mundaire for the separate thread.
we were going ot and ott arguing in the previous thread.
Lets have a separate thread for arguments.
also, i feel this thread isnt just fao shutzen and mehul but ALL IFG members. Dont u agree?

thanks shutzen.
this was helpful.
hav a 315 in india and though im no expert, its not as bad as some claim it is.
could it be because it is an old one?
i think the newer batches should have better quality.
anyways, what is the meaning of 'big bore'?

from what you say, thinking as a doctor and a sportsman, i think running/ aerobics plus weight training for upper body strength can be very useful for rifle shooting.
not to mention yoga/meditation.
how does one achieve consistancy in breathing (plz refer to mehuls answer to my first enquiry.)

Most practice i did was with national airgun.
used to shoot at least 100/day everyday starting at age 14.
after few months got consistant/ good enough to hit a (thick) nail/ pencil at 10 m.
first competition at 16-17.
practice rounds- worst shot was in 8 circle.
during competition shot so badly. now i realise it was performance anxiety.
all my frnds/ younger cousins were there expecting me to nail it.
felt soo embaressed, never even tried to compete after that.
now am old/fat. tried mundaires airgun/air pistol while he was in London.
the reaasults were more disheartning.
now im determined to get better.

[mundaire]

also, i feel this thread isnt just fao shutzen and mehul but ALL IFG members. Dont u agree?

Shooter,

The "FAO Mehul & Shutzen" portion of the subject was based on your first post on this thread wherein you specifically directed your questions at both the gentlemen in question... of course this does not preclude others joining in - it's just a specific request for both Mehul & Shutzen to contribute their knowledge on this thread...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[shutzen]

[quote="shooter";
also, i feel this thread isnt just fao shutzen and mehul but ALL IFG members. Dont u agree?
yes! where do u think I got all the info from when I started out ? the various forums on the net + the books I found on various sites. I have no truck with Mehul and if the mods want they can re-instate him I have no hard feelings. I know someone who has comeback to India from the US -he also has Mehuls style and aggresive attitude so I guess its a defense mechanism which some Indians in the US built up - I could be wrong tho.


thanks shutzen.
this was helpful.

Well Shooter we just started you haveto get back shooting and we have to shoot a big bore national to shoot

hav a 315 in india and though im no expert, its not as bad as some claim it is.
could it be because it is an old one?

I have one too and have got good results with it . In fact when I scoped it local gunsmiths used to come to my house to see it !

i think the newer batches should have better quality.
Logically they should - u only xpect a manufacturing process to improove with time

anyways, what is the meaning of 'big bore'?
another misnomer carried forward from the UIT days. I donno but have to chk if earlier they were shooting bigger calibers in the matches. The .22 rimfire was relagated to the small bore category and the other centerfire rifles were classified as big bore . Basically u r allowed to fire any cal upt 8mm - so you could be shooting .222 or .223 and still they would be classified big bore though in cal. they are virtually .22 rimfire diameter.



Most practice i did was with national airgun.
used to shoot at least 100/day everyday starting at age 14.
after few months got consistant/ good enough to hit a (thick) nail/ pencil at 10 m.

thats pretty cool my first airgun (competition airgun) was a IHP hamerli co2 . I wore out several Indian .22 airirfles before this ******* /plinking (Edited once again ) at the farm though. Was pretty good myself

first competition at 16-17.

somehow never got around to competing in AR caouse felt its a kiddie match , and also did no think too much about the .22 either - Lack of exposure to the sport I guess - was too busy with pest control. Shot my first competition at 38 ! with a open sight IOF .22 Rifle and came in 9th in my state competition.

during competition shot so badly. all my frnds/ younger cousins were there expecting me to nail it.
felt soo embaressed, never even tried to compete after that.

Happens to a lot of people - you should not feel embarrased or disheartened but try and analize your mistakes and rework your training to overcome those flaws. At my first AIGVM was shocked to see the number of competitiors and was also more surprised that some of them were coming for their 5-6 attempt to try and qualify ! Thats what match pressure can do.


now i realise it was performance anxiety.

Well I have found that the Goras have done a lot of research and coined sevral fanciful phrases another eg : PID = performance induced dioreaha - those are the poor guys who you see rushing to the loos at the range before their comp. starts becuz they work up their tension to such levels that their tummies cant cope.


now am old/fat. tried mundaires airgun/air pistol while he was in London.
the reaasults were more disheartning.
now im determined to get better

Glad to hear that - we all r getting old and fat but working hard to stay fit and keep competing. Firing any rifle /pistol takes some practice as u r well aware. Off hand if u just pick up a gun without practice you cannot expect results. Put in some dry aiming practice and u should be okay.

I'll share some things with you here:

1. U get down to shooting your .22 50 M match and in your prep time u try to set up ur spotting scope - either u struggle through ur prep time to get it set or ur prep time runs out while u r still struggling anxiety level + u deciede to shoot ur match with a improperly setup scope and ur antics to spot the shot through the improperly set scope screws up ur position as u cran ur neck up /down or lean to ur left to peer through it and u cant shoot upto expectations all the while ur anxiety factor is going +++

2. U go through ur first 6-7 sighting shots getting into the groove and then start hitting tens and u realize the time has come to start the record shots - u call out "record" and the first target comes up - in the meantime ur brain has gone inot overdirve and u shoot ur first shot with a tense strong hold and hit a 7 or a 8 u llok thru the scope and panic - how come a ten hold has hit a 7? u take another shot another 8! its the muscle tension baby but u give some sight adjustments and get back into your comfort zone and start shooting in a rythym - ur body relaxes - the poor scope alignment screws u up and as ur body relaxes the zero shifts and suddenlly u hit another 7-8. U htink u r tired and u increase concentration and shoot again with bad equally bad results and start giving sight corrections again as per ur relaxed body and try to get back : very important to have ur body relaxed , hold rifle without any excess muscle tension, do not exert any more pressure in the match pulling back on ur rifle than the relaxed hold with which u started.
3. As ur anxiety goes up u start holding ur breath for extended periods to try and centre hold ur rifle and fire a good shot -leading to oxygen starvation and ur heart starts pumping at higher rates and u start breating faster and shallower - hell why is the rifle jumping all around the bull with the pulse transmission through the sling- u exert more force and pull the rifle back into ur shoulder and as ur good sight picture comes up u forget all trigger control and jerk the trigger throwing the shot wild -then u realise ur elbow and wrist are hurting like hell aniexty level +++++ to cap it all off u forget/ seem confused about the elev and windage corrections - r u giving correction properly or u r sure u r doing it wrong - big goof as u keep chasing the bull

4. U pause after a bad shot and u suddenly fell heavy bass thud thud thud sound - u look around for the source - and no it aint the street brats cars boom box its ur own heart beating and it sounds as if the entire range can hear it - u look around at your neighbor to see if he can hear it

5. as u r shooting u try and keep a mental score - part of ur mind is distracted with remembering the score and how many more mistakes you have left to qualify and suddenly u realise the margin for error is shrinking and mentally start giving up the match as lost and ur shooting goes from bad to worse

the above are only some of the common mistakes and faults that occour during a match. I have just outlined them so that u can read them - have a good laugh and start thinking afresh about starting out.

from what you say, thinking as a doctor and a sportsman, i think running/ aerobics plus weight training for upper body strength can be very useful for rifle shooting.
not to mention yoga/meditation.

well physical fitness is important for general well being and any sport. for shooting aerobics and light weights should do. I havnt tried yoga mediation yet but it should increase your concetration

how does one achieve consistancy in breathing (plz refer to mehuls answer to my first enquiry.)
Well thats a huge topic in itself will deal with it later. Right now just go through my noob shhoter walkthrough and tell me which point I missed out ? and how close I am to your exp have fun

[penpusher]

I have no truck with Mehul

I think anybody would be able to figure this out by now

and if the mods want they can re-instate him

Thank you for your permission.Anything else you want to give your nod to.We are all here to please you.

I have no hard feelings

Like anybody cares.

penpusher

[Grumpy]

Zzzzzzzz zzzzzzz zzzzzzz zzzzzzz

[hamiclar01]

I have no truck with Mehul

I think anybody would be able to figure this out by now

and if the mods want they can re-instate him

Thank you for your permission.Anything else you want to give your nod to.We are all here to please you.

I have no hard feelings

Like anybody cares.

penpusher

???
can we stick to the topic please. come to think of it, grumpy, i'm joining you mate!

[Grumpy]

The reason for the `zzzzzzzzzs` is that if you read the two epic posts above properly you`ll find that more than half the content can be removed because it`s repetition/quotes/verbiage/irrelevant.
I don`t know about `PID` - `Performance Induced Dioreaha` but I recognise verbal diarrhoea.
To be fair I find ISSF target competition just slightly more interesting than watching paint dry - a case of `been there, done that, got a life` - but accept that many - obviously - participate in, and enjoy the sport. I don`t, however, see the point in using unnecessary bandwidth in such quantities and thoroughly object to comments being made about Mehul when he`s not here to defend himself. As for being told that the moderators can re-instate him if we wish - well thanks a bunch. I can`t remember the last time I was so condescendingly patronised.
When you`ve done half of what Mehul has done in the field of guns and shooting - including ISU target - and have amassed half of his knowledge I might be prepared to tolerate rather more of your verbiage. In the meantime you might try to keep to keep your outpourings rather more relevent and concise and practice the noble art of precis.
In the meantime:
Zzzzzz zzzzzz zzzzzz zzzzzz

[shutzen]

Grumpy";p="22357"]The reason for the `zzzzzzzzzs` is that if you read the two epic posts above properly you`ll find that more than half the content can be removed because it`s repetition/quotes/verbiage/irrelevant.

Well Grumpy one post deals with competition Vs hunting - my views abt it and anothe is about a newbie shooting a big match and the goofs he is likely to commit


I don`t know about `PID` - `Performance Induced Dioreaha` but I recognise verbal diarrhoea.

I think it is obvius you have nevr taken part in competitive sports where you represent your state and have to travel long distances mostly by train eg. 2 days-3days jounrney time and then compete in a qualifying match and u will encounter ppl suffering frm this . It is induced by extreme mental stress when the concerned person is so jittery abt his ability to aceive his goal - BTW this term has not been coined by me Its by some very famous american coach.


To be fair I find ISSF target competition just slightly more interesting than watching paint dry - a case of `been there, done that, got a life` - but accept that many - obviously - participate in, and enjoy the sport.

If u really want to be fair all kinds of shooting ACTIVITES including hunting are only enjoyed by the shooter. Hell If u go to a artillery shoot or a airforce firepower demo even that pretty boring. I guess that when things go boom its only the guy with the trigger who enjoys it. so.....

each to his own buddy - If some member on the forum wants some info and I honestly try and give him some corrent info and he can derive some benifit from ot - Whats ur problem with that? u didint ask for it - I didnt write it for you and neither di I care about ur comments on it


When you`ve done half of what Mehul has done in the field of guns and shooting - including ISU target - and have amassed half of his knowledge I might be prepared to tolerate rather more of your verbiage. In the meantime you might try to keep to keep your outpourings rather more relevent and concise and practice the noble art of precis.
In the meantime:

Here we go again! Now if I comment on this then nice provocation mate but I aint biting - I DID it fulfillling a specific request- yes it wasnt from you so if u dont like it go back to bed...
Zzzzzz zzzzzz zzzzzz zzzzzz[/quote]

dont let the bed bugs bite ,,, G'night sleep tight

[hamiclar01]

]

I don`t know about `PID` - `Performance Induced Dioreaha` but I recognise verbal diarrhoea.

just for the record, it's actually termed IBS:irritable bowel syndrome, (quite different from IBD:inflammatory bowel disease) , because of it's psychosomatic origin....read :disease of the mind.

Typical example, people who feel an urge to go to the loo just before being called for that vital job interview.

Best cure : I'll tell you when i discover it

[Grumpy]

Wouldn`t that have to be `IrriTATING Bowel Syndrome` ?

Irritable Bowel Syndrome is psychosomatic ? I don`t think so.