Indians For Guns

hi guys,
i brought a dominator 1250 (.22) from dubai. n upon arrival i declared the same to the customs, i showed them the invoice which clearly states that its an air rifle, but as per the procedure it was sent to the balstic department where it failed the deal wood test. the balastic department certified that its not exempted from fire arms
so the customs people told me to get valid license to retrive back my rifile.
i have applied for a lisence and may get it within 10 daysif every thing goes according to the plan
and my questions is
i dont want to endorse an air rifle in my license, but at the same time i want my dominator back,is there any legal way?
is there any seperate license for air rifile?
are the customs people authrized to make any entry on my license?
plzz advice
regards
babu

Have never heard of a licence for a air gun....but then why did you get an AR which would fail the test you could have got one lesser power re ft/lbs...which would pass the test....good luck...hope you can have it cleared asap..

..well logically, unless there is a specific rule or notification that that effect, an air gun that fails the deal wood test would be regarded on paper as a firearm...funny situation eh?

no chance mate. try export it back and get something new, which will pass the ideal wood test. or else as per the arms act its on the ticket.

frends,
regarding re-export i have to talk to the customs depart ment, legally what r the possibilities?
and i have to talk to al sayed captains store in dubai, and they have to agree for an exchange offer same brand with .177 caliber
is there any one known to them? plzz help
regards
babu

What is the deal wood test?

If the .22 failed the deal wood test (which is basically a penetration test), I very much doubt that a .177 cal of the same make+model will pass the test - UNLESS of course it is a power limited version, like the sub 12 ft lb air-rifles sold in UK. If anything the .177 cal usually penetrates quite a bit more than a .22 cal.

If your air-gun fails the test, ALL provisions of the Arms Act would apply to it, including the need for a license. The classification would be as per III (d) of Schedule I of the Arms Rules and the licensing authority would be the local DM of the area where you reside/ DCP Licensing (in case you live in a metro city).

Fill out your license application, listing "air-rifle" as the type of arm for which you are seeking a license.

MoA, the deal wood test is detailed here - http://www.indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2335

Air guns, air rifles and air pistols which satisfy the following test, namely that - the projectiles discharged from such guns or pistols do not perforate a target 12 inches square formed by deal-wood boards of even grain, free from knots, planed on both sides and of thickness of 1/2" and 1" for air pistols and air guns/ rifles respectively:
Provided that in making and estimating the test the following conditions shall be observed, namely:-

(a) the weapon shall be held horizontally with the muzzle at a distance of five feet from the target,

(b) the test shall be repeated twenty times for each class of projectiles which can be discharged from the weapon; and

(c) perforation shall be deemed to be effected-
(i) in a case where the projectile is a dart, if the point of the dart pierces the back of the target, and
(ii) in any other case if the projectile passes completely through the back of the target.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

DEAR SIR,
is the deal wood test valid for 177 also?
regards
babu

Mods.....is it asking for too much if we ask members to attach along with their post a copy of the detention notice given by customs to clearly understand what the problem is?

ABABUJAY wrote:DEAR SIR,
is the deal wood test valid for 177 also?
regards
babu

Yes ....and Abhijeet has already explained that in detail....what is it with some of you,first you knowingly bring in an AR which you are aware that it might not make the cut of getting through the customs.....which is essentially breaking the law.....then you try to solicit advice immedeately on IFG....re how to get it out.....hey IFG is not a one stop shop on seeking advice how to get a licence or clear an air gun from the customs....for that there are well defined procedures laid down just follow them based on the advice of professionals like lawyers,clearing agents etc....

Hate to point it out and it is not directed at you personally but at the so called AR enthusiasts at large,that the way this privilege of importing AR's is being abused.....it will only be a matter of time before it's withdrawn or procedures amended to stop it from being abused....

Hate to point it out and it is not directed at you personally but at the so called AR enthusiasts at large,that the way this privilege of importing AR's is being abused.....it will only be a matter of time before it's withdrawn or procedures amended to stop it from being abused....

[/quote]

its a question of what perspective is being used to argue this privilege. There is no clarity on whether a .22 air rifle is allowed or not. In some cases it has been allowed and in quite a few cases it has been refused. At Delhi airport the customs are charging 100% duty on import of .177 and depending on who deals with you, the Airgun is mostly detained to be cleared subject to completion of the requirements. And more often than not the dealing officer has no clue on what is an Airgun.

Yesterday an IRS officer posted as Assistant Commissioner (a self proclaimed shooter) at Delhi Airport was called to get an opinion on whether my .22 is indeed an Air rifle or not. And guess what, according to him it's a firearm which require explosive ammo. Upon further discussion he decided to disappear.

So the point is that "the so called AR enthusiasts" are actually contributing towards educating the white brigade at the expense of their own time and money. If there is a feeling that this will hurt the privilege of AR imports to discuss such experiences on this forum, then the same will apply to RKBA, arms licencing, import of firearms etc. The issue of .22 import has been discussed at length in this forum and the experiences are different in every case. There is no clarity on whether .22 import is allowed or not. DGFT notification talks only about .177 and is silent about .22, which leaves room for interpretation. Ans that is why the experiences are different. General discussions will only lead to clarity in policy for dealing with this issue and may eventually lead to clear policy which will help future import attempts by "so called AR enthusiasts."

To my understanding, the purpose of this forum is to share experiences, knowledge and enthusiasm towards shooting as a sport. And experiences sometimes do turn out to be bad and if a fellow member is approaching the group for advice, it is upto the rest to help or not. But rebuking someone for asking an advice is uncalled for.

Apologies if my opinion is a bit too direct.

Best,

HS
The Law wrt import of Air Arms is very clear….the DGFT notification in this case clearly states that one can ONLY import .177 Cal Air Arms,provided you have complied with all the other terms and conditions for import allowed as per the EXIM policy in force currently…..it does not mention any other Cal anywhere in the Notification….that means that as per the law one cannot import any other Cal AR period…..pl do not try to give the DGFT notification a twist by saying it is silent on the .22 Cal……hey then how about a .50 Cal AR it’s silent on that too……now if you or some one else chooses to import a Cal not mentioned in the Notification and the same cant be cleared or isn’t by the White Brigade for what ever reason then who is to blame……..in the case of the other gent….the boys in White have told him to get a Licence for it,cause it seems that it has failed to get past the deal wood test…….. honestly what advice can one give under such circumstances,except that seek professional help from a lawyer or a clearing agent..…….

Well, if so many people can't seem to read and interpret the content of a brief and simple DGFT notification, that should put a dent in our country's claims to literacy levels.

The antics are amusing and would be something like twisting things and applying to license a 5.56mm rifle, because its not mentioned in the Arms Rules.

Now someone is attempting to get a .22cal Air Rifle through the white line....with ME in excess of what is permissible in the country - That would be an off-step on two counts.... and we are complaining?

As sanjay mentioned, the small allowance made by a largely hostile and uncooperative establishment is being abused intentionally or unintentionally by many individuals. I'd urge all Air Rifle enthusiasts to do your homework if if you plan to import one. Attempts (successful or not) to twist your way through supposed ambiguities in regulations may or may not benefit you, but think of your fellow AR enthusiast who may have to face harassment later because of it.

If clarification is needed, why the hell doesn't one of the affected persons file an RTI appeal with the DGFT or whatever?
How difficult or expensive is that? Be aware that an RTI appeal needn't be one that is confrontational but one that is simply and genuinely seeking clarification/information. That should put an end to all doubts.

If the white wallahs in the field are dick-heads, well what can one say? Unfortunately most of the establishment is engineered to be such. This is India sadly.

...and certainly no one is discouraged from posting his or her experiences, problems, queries etc. The more information that is available the better in time it will get.

regards,
cc

Sanjay, point well taken, my only argument is that it is important to share experiences here (in forums like IFG) as any modification in the law will result out of the sentiment of the shooting fraternity in general. In terms of ease of law and logic, we are already at the bottom of the pit. If raising issues, contesting the archaic logic and challenging existing laws for betterment of the sport is the only option, then we must try the same. If I can buy a .22 AR in India, I should be allowed to import the same as well.

The gents in white themselves are not clear about the rules. And while the DGFT has clearly explained rules pertaining to .177 there is no clarity on what has to happen to .22. Which licence is required and from which authority. I’m saying this out of personal experience. My .22 has been detained by Delhi customs and I’ve had two rounds with them. Trust me, they are on the defensive and are not able to give convincing answers as to why they can’t release my AR. My argument is simple, as an Indian returning on TR, I’m allowed to import a fire arm, however a simple .22 air rifle is not allowed. All I’m asking them is an explanation of this simple argument. My parting note to the AC in charge was that if all regulations are to be implemented by reading books, then why do we need good brains as officers, a bull headed clerk will be able to do the same job. To my surprise the officer seemed to agree and has promised to update me again on Monday.

Like many others in this forum I’ve been exposed to guns from quite an early age but it is only after I moved abroad did I learn to enjoy shooting as a sport. Perhaps liberal laws have helped more and more people to take up to shooting sports abroad. As far as my view goes, I like to shoot .177 on a 10 mtr range but when I want to hone my skills on a 50 mtr range (or beyond) I’ll definitely want to use a .22. And I guess that’s perhaps why we are allowed to buy a .22 without any licence needs. It’s sad to note the state of affairs in our country but then maybe we have not protested enough.

Again, IMO we must raise the issue of import restrictions etc by all means possible and continuing to bring .22 AR is one such option. Of course whoever attempts to do so must be prepared to face all kinds of hardships. But then if we want to rattle the cage, do we really have a lot of options??

Last but not the least, I respect your view and this is not to prove my point or something, just that our collective protest will surely yield result some day. To that respect, let’s treat all these requests at least to keep a count of how many attempts are being made by AR enthusiasts.

To ask for advice is every members discretion and to give advice is someone else’s prerogative. Guess we can just leave it like that

-- Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:20 pm --

cottage cheese wrote:Well, if so many people can't seem to read and interpret the content of a brief and simple DGFT notification, that should put a dent in our country's claims to literacy levels.

CC, I fully agree with you here, the literacy claims are indeed dented at least for the bureaucrats responsible for implementing these rules. What’s your interpretation of “free import of .177 air rifles”?? Delhi customs is charging 100% import duty on air rifles brought through personal baggage route, according to them only import through cargo route is exempted.

Let’s face it....... like several other rules, these notifications are subject to interpretation. And this is perhaps why on this very forum we have seen remarks by senior members whereby it is suggested that .177 is duty free and .22 is subject to duty applicable. And we are also aware of instances where members have faced cooperative customs officials (read aware) who have allowed hassle free passage once satisfied that the goods in question are indeed sporting guns.

cottage cheese wrote:If clarification is needed, why the hell doesn't one of the affected persons file an RTI appeal with the DGFT or whatever?
How difficult or expensive is that? Be aware that an RTI appeal needn't be one that is confrontational but one that is simply and genuinely seeking clarification/information. That should put an end to all doubts.

Of course if clarifications are sought one has to make individual efforts and once the results are out, share them with others who might have interest. I guess that’s the idea of participating in these forums. If I need to know the rules, I’ll I’ll definitely use the RTI tool, which I’m already doing for my case, but I’d also like to know from others if they have similar experiences. I don’t think anyone asking for clarifications (read experiences) from group members is trying to save on efforts or shying away from confronting the rules, if needed. After all, we have played our part by dutifully declaring about our AR to customs and any confrontation is only within the remit of the law.

Best

Highland Sniper,

Please accept my apologies if I've rubbed you off the wrong way. That was not my intention and neither was it to put a wet blanket on any discussion on the subject.

Its just that of late the Air Rifle Import question has been discussed and dissected to the point of saturation. I'm sure you've explored the threads. It does get exasperating at times even if no member (including me) is under any compulsion to attend to the topic...ok that sounds silly... but do allow us our human moments.

You must also appreciate the fact that many unscrupulous and selfish individuals (not referring to you) seek to exploit the small window afforded by the notification. How difficult do you think it is for some dispassionate and unashamedly hostile babu to simply and smugly sign away the whole issue with impunity. After all, our establishment is a reactive rather than an active one. They will react- and even more enthusiastically if it involves anything vaguely related to the definition of arms. Bear in mind that the establishment leans heavily towards 'the path of least resistance' - Ban.

As regards the my interpretation of "free import of .177 air rifles", I have none other than that of parroting it at face-value. Sorry about that because ARs are not my line of interest. With regard to the language and clarity of rules and notifications, I must agree without reserve that our country's formidable babudom excels in narrowly considered broad-swords - it's typical and wont go in a hurry. Its unacceptable that plain instructions and orders are to be left to interpretation and discretion. Doesn't it negate the whole purpose of the exercise?.... annoying.

If you are going the RTI way, I'm more than happy. Your efforts in this respect will be even more beneficial to the whole AR community if you indeed share the results of your RTI appeal. After all monetary donations are not the only way one can support our cause.

Why, a couple of you bright and appropriately located AR enthusiasts could even write a simple request to the Vigilance wing of the or DGFT or perhaps even to the entire upper chain of command, to issue simple and clear instructions to all field stations in this respect citing varied and often flawed interpretations that lead to inevitable and needless harassment and distress to individuals. It certainly isn't confrontational and is a genuine grievance...and will probably be received positively if worded in a benign manner.

Do keep posting often.

regards,
cc