Indians For Guns

In the event of death of licence holder , is retainer entitled to continue holding weapon legally , feedback on the subject is requested.Regards James...

james wrote:In the event of death of licence holder , is retainer entitled to continue holding weapon legally , feedback on the subject is requested.Regards James...

No

No retainer in BOMBAY licence

sunilssn wrote:No retainer in BOMBAY licence

Why? Is the INDIAN Arms Act not applicable to Mumbai?

Please read this

"Indian Arms Act 1959
CHAPTER I - PRELIMINARY
1. Short title, extent and commencement

(1) This Act may be called the Arms Act, 1959.

(2) It extends to the whole of India....."

http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india ... r_1_2.html

On my Mumbai license in the ratianer's section/column:

"As per Govt. of India Notification No. xxxxxxxx (I can't read this) Ministry of xxxxxx (can't read), New Delhi dt xxxxxx (can't read). NO RETAINERSHIP IS ALLOWED".

AMK

application for licence for an armed retainer is under form No III-A and the licence or rather permit is given under III-B. in the case of licence holders the permit ceases when the licence of the original holder ceases to be in force.
as regards the mumbai situation i think it is wrong information because many banks/companies jewellery showrooms/security agencies have armed retainers
regs
sudhaiob

Hi everybody... Always keep in mind... an act is always designed ideal. When in doubt, refer to your common sense. A retainer is retainer of the arm on behalf of the licensee. He is not allowed to use it. He is only for the purpose of carrying a weapon from here to there, for the licensee. So, it is but obvious that when a licensee dies, his retainer has no authority to retain it.Generally retainer is construed as a heir, which is totally wrong.

.......Ajay

Actually, I believe retainers can use it provided that certain conditions are met. Retainers in the sense of Indian licenses refers to those days when a gun owner would have had servants who were legally authorized to be armed- but the gun did not belong to them.

However, there isn't a legal connection between "retainer" and "heir." Though, I'd assume, if you are listed as a "retainer" on the license and are an actual heir- the weapon should be easier to transfer to your name- through all the usual processes.

No mr. BJL, a retainer is not at all authorised to use the weapon. Pl. refer rule 13 of Indian Arms Rules,1962, which clearly says that the owner of any arms or ammunition licensed in form III applies for permitting his agent, relative or employee to POSSESS OR CARRY ANY ARMS OR AMMUNITION covered by the licence......so on. Licence in form IIIa is for those retainers, whose owners are exempted from keeping a licence. Your mis-conception may be because of the fact that in a licence for crop protection in form V, a column is there to mention the name of any employee or relative, who will be allowed to carry that weapon like a retainer and also to use it for the crop protection purpose. Pl note that in this case of form V licence, it can be only relative or employee who can carry and use the weapon., unlike in form III, where it can be an agent of the owner also but who can not use it.(this agent can be anybody....!)
.....Ajay

A retainer is entered on the license as such after police verification and on the application of the licensee and the person who wishes to become the retainer.There after the retainer can carry the firearm independent of the licensee.On the death of the licensee,the license automatically becomes invalid and the firearm/s on the license have to be deposited with a dealer or at a police station.

The relevant Rule is Rule 13 of the Arms Rules,1962.

- The law as it's written would imply that the retainer can use it. But I wonder if this belief is prevalent that the retainer cannot use the weapon. Be interesting to know.

Here's the rule in question

The Rules state:
RETAINER:

As per Rule 13(2) of Arms Rules, 1962, a licence in Form-III granted to a Company for the protection of the premises or property shall be in the name of a member, agent or other representative of the Company, who shall be responsible for the custody of the weapon. The name of the servant or any other employee entrusted with the weapon for guarding the premises or property of the Company shall be entered as a retainer in the appropriate column of the licence.

So considering it says "entrusted with the weapon for GUARDING the premises or property...", it should imply that he has the authority, if needed, to discharge said weapon.

ajayplahane wrote:No mr. BJL, a retainer is not at all authorised to use the weapon.

The next time you see a bank guard tell him that he can carry and possess the shotty but he can't use it.

Now ,I am sure there is going to be a long discussion, on how you are absolutely right Please read Rule 13 again and also the terms and conditions of the License in Form III,Form III-A and Form III-B.

-- Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:04 am --

BJL,

To add to what you have already posted

Rule 13 (1)"....permitting his agent,relative or employee to possess or carry any of the arms or ammunition covered by the license for sport,protection or display,on his behalf,whether in attendance on him or not......"

FORM III,Condition 5." The licensee or any retainer acting under this license shall not carry any arms covered thereby otherwise than in good faith for the purpose of sport/protection/display..."

FORM-III-B

Shri........son of ..............is hereby appointed to be an armed retainer of the company....entitling him to possess,carry and use......"

-- Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:13 am --

As far as merely carrying a firearm is concerned, no license is required for this.Nor does the person have to be retainer .Proviso to Section 3, Sub-section I) "PROVIDED that a person may,without himself holding a license carry any firearms or ammunition in the presence,or under the written authority of the holder of the license for repair or for renewal of the license or for use by such holder."

As far as retainers go,Rule 13(1)"...and in circumstances different from those mentioned in proviso to Section 3..."

Dear all,
If u go go through rule 13 thoroughly, matters will be very clear. Nowhere it is said that a retainer is allowed to use the weapon. The proviso for companies or institutes is a different case. U can not equate it with the retainer. It is only for the licence issued to the company and not for the individual.Because a bank guard is allowed to use a weapon, licence of which is issued to the bank, does not mean that it can be extended to the individual licencee.( There is a subject called Interpretation of statutes tought in law graduation course. How to read a section and its proviso is also to be understood in the light of the intent of the section...! ) PL go through the section again and again and then only u will understand.Still u have doubts, pl raise them. I shall clarify......
......Ajay

-- Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:56 pm --

To simplify and to have it other way round, a licence ceases to exist on the death of the licencee. Do u want to say that a retainer exists without a licence....?

I don't know about that. I'm pretty convinced that according to law a retainer has the right to use the gun. Plus seeing what Penpusher (thanks for that) has posted- the forms are written with the intent of the retainer using the weapon. Does that mean that if you're a retainer, and the main license holder dies, that you get the weapon? Absolutely not. We're just commenting on the legal right of the retainer to use the weapon while the main licensee is alive.

penpusher wrote: BJL,

To add to what you have already posted

Rule 13 (1)"....permitting his agent,relative or employee to possess or carry any of the arms or ammunition covered by the license for sport,protection or display,on his behalf,whether in attendance on him or not......"

FORM III,Condition 5." The licensee or any retainer acting under this license shall not carry any arms covered thereby otherwise than in good faith for the purpose of sport/protection/display..."

FORM-III-B

Shri........son of ..............is hereby appointed to be an armed retainer of the company....entitling him to possess,carry and use......"

-- Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:13 am --

As far as merely carrying a firearm is concerned, no license is required for this.Nor does the person have to be retainer .Proviso to Section 3, Sub-section I) "PROVIDED that a person may,without himself holding a license carry any firearms or ammunition in the presence,or under the written authority of the holder of the license for repair or for renewal of the license or for use by such holder."

As far as retainers go,Rule 13(1)"...and in circumstances different from those mentioned in proviso to Section 3..."

Ajay,

There are two issues here.

1.What rights does the retainer enjoy with regard to use of firearms entered on the license,while the licensee is still alive and while the license remains a valid document.

Rule 13 itself makes it clear that a person made a retainer on a license has the right to use the firearm for the purpose for which the license was granted in the first place.This can be in the presence of the licensee or even in his absence."For the purpose of" itself indicates use and defines the usage the arms can be put to.The retainer uses the firearms on behalf of the licensee for the purpose for which the license was granted.

The license to an institution is granted in Form III.The retainer is granted a license in Form III-B

If a person is to just carry a firearm for the use of the licensee he can do that without a license or being entered as a retainer.You seem to have a 'bearer' confused with a 'retainer'

2.What rights does the retainer have when the licensee dies

Absolutely none