Indians For Guns

Hi,

I was visiting the MHA website today and saw the NCRB link sharing the data of victims killed by Licensed & Unlicensed Firearms (State/UT wise) in the year 2014.

Out of Total No. of 7230 victims murdered in 2014 by firearms, 1072 victims were killed by Licensed Firearms which is roughly 14.82% of the total victims. This is quite a big percentage. We also need to work on responsible gun ownership in India.

Please share your views.

Regards
Ankur

something...really serious here

should also consider the situation that lead to these murders
regards
dr.jk

Dr. JK,

It is important to know why they were killed. After all they got the licenses for self protection and getting killed in spite of having a gun does not seem to be a good idea.

Atul

The word "victim" has to be carefully considered. Where all "victims"???? It's a powerful word that draws waves of sympathy.

BD

What one needs to do is get a breakdown of the 1072 number? One will need to file an RTI ask them (MHA) out of 1072 victims how many were suicides, victims due accidental discharge of weapons, victims due celebratory firings and justified homicides. And after you take that out the actual number will be in double digits.

spin_drift wrote:What one needs to do is get a breakdown of the 1072 number? One will need to file an RTI ask them (MHA) out of 1072 victims how many were suicides, victims due accidental discharge of weapons, victims due celebratory firings and justified homicides. And after you take that out the actual number will be in double digits.

Victims due accidental discharge of weapons and victims due celebratory firings can't be removed from the list as it is gross negligence of the fire arm owner.

Atul

@Atul, yes, but those victims are not victims of actions of a criminal enterprise... and hence can be significantly reduced with proper firearm handling training and educating license holders on proper firearms etiquette.

On second thought, check the section of the same report containing the numbers for fatalities due to motor vehicles accidents.

spin_drift wrote:@Atul, yes, but those victims are not victims of actions of a criminal enterprise... and hence can be significantly reduced with proper firearm handling training and educating license holders on proper firearms etiquette.

On second thought, check the section of the same report containing the numbers for fatalities due to motor vehicles accidents.

Spin_drift,

There is a small difference there. I agree with you that an accident is an accident. But hitting your car while replying to an sms or while kissing your girlfriend while driving still makes it an accident but one may tend to call it negligence.

Atul

aadhaulya wrote:

spin_drift wrote:@Atul, yes, but those victims are not victims of actions of a criminal enterprise... and hence can be significantly reduced with proper firearm handling training and educating license holders on proper firearms etiquette.

On second thought, check the section of the same report containing the numbers for fatalities due to motor vehicles accidents.

Spin_drift,

There is a small difference there. I agree with you that an accident is an accident. But hitting your car while replying to an sms or while kissing your girlfriend while driving still makes it an accident but one may tend to call it negligence.

Atul

you sure got experience kissing your girl on drive...ha ha ha
regards
dr.jk

aadhaulya wrote: Dr. JK,

It is important to know why they were killed. After all they got the licenses for self protection and getting killed in spite of having a gun does not seem to be a good idea.

Atul

The people owning guns are not killed. In this list it means the victims of death/murder/homicide which were killed by a licensed weapon. If 15% is the percentage of total no. of people died from a licensed weapon out of total people killed with firearm, it is an alarming thing, specially this data can be used by bureaucrats to defame the cause of RKBA.

Regards
Ankur

Added in 2 minutes 57 seconds:
Hi Spin Drift,

Suggest me some points and I shall file the RTI today only.

Regards

You have to keep the following in mind, while considering any NCRB figures on homicides:

a) Self-defence shootings using licensed firearms are registered as murder (in case a death is caused), till the investigation/ trial proves otherwise. These get added to the total, inflating the figures.

b) Accidental deaths involving a firearm are registered as murder, till the investigation/ trial proves otherwise. These get added to the total, inflating the figure

c) Suicides committed using licensed firearms are registered as murder, till the investigation/ trial proves otherwise. These get added to the total, inflating the figures.

d) While many homicides committed using means other than firearms can (and many times do) get passed off as accidental deaths, homicides involving the use of firearms are almost always registered as murder.

Having stated the above, I would also like you to consider:

a) Why only look at number of victims murdered using licensed/ unlicensed firearms? It matters naught to the victim, what means were used - he/ she is equally dead either way. One should in stead look at TOTAL number of murders per year and then analyse the different means used. You will find that the overwhelming number of murders are committed using means other than firearms.

b) Why only look at murders? One should look at the total number of violent crimes (robbery, assault, dacoity, rape, etc.) committed per year and the number of licensed firearms used in commission of such crimes.

Do take time to read this academic study from Harvard http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/org ... online.pdf

It will explode all myths regarding gun control.

mundaire wrote:You have to keep the following in mind, while considering any NCRB figures on homicides:

a) Self-defence shootings using licensed firearms are registered as murder (in case a death is caused), till the investigation/ trial proves otherwise. These get added to the total, inflating the figures.

b) Accidental deaths involving a firearm are registered as murder, till the investigation/ trial proves otherwise. These get added to the total, inflating the figure

c) Suicides committed using licensed firearms are registered as murder, till the investigation/ trial proves otherwise. These get added to the total, inflating the figures.

d) While many homicides committed using means other than firearms can (and many times do) get passed off as accidental deaths, homicides involving the use of firearms are almost always registered as murder.

Having stated the above, I would also like you to consider:

a) Why only look at number of victims murdered using licensed/ unlicensed firearms? It matters naught to the victim, what means were used - he/ she is equally dead either way. One should in stead look at TOTAL number of murders per year and then analyse the different means used. You will find that the overwhelming number of murders are committed using means other than firearms.

b) Why only look at murders? One should look at the total number of violent crimes (robbery, assault, dacoity, rape, etc.) committed per year and the number of licensed firearms used in commission of such crimes.

Do take time to read this academic study from Harvard http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/org ... online.pdf

It will explode all myths regarding gun control.

Abhijeet hi,

You gave me a very clear insight.

Is it correct way of recording data in which NCRB is recording things? Ca we suggest NCRB a format in which they should keep data regarding firearms used in violent crimes, Eg. Homicides, Accidental Deaths, Murders, Rapes on Gunpoint, Armed Robbery etc? or can we ask the detailed report in an RTI from NCRB about violent crimes with gun in the above format? This report/reply can be a supporting document in the PIL which GBM & Spin Drift are drafting.

regards

Making RKBA as something that is subject to the tools of crime is pointless. In other words making the rights of law abiding subject to the behavior or tools of trade of criminals is unacceptable.

Yes the overall crime picture should be viewed. The cases filed include many false cases due to various reasons. Investigation does not prove anything. It is the courts that find if case is based on facts or fiction. It is only when trial court convicts someone guilty, only then it means something. If High Court or Supreme Court acquits, then again it means nothing. Therefore instead of collecting inaccurate or vague data, NCRB should be collecting conviction data from trial courts, and track them while they go to High Court or Supreme Court.

goodboy_mentor wrote:Making RKBA as something that is subject to the tools of crime is pointless. In other words making the rights of law abiding subject to the behavior or tools of trade of criminals is unacceptable.

Yes the overall crime picture should be viewed. The cases filed include many false cases due to various reasons. Investigation does not prove anything. It is the courts that find if case is based on facts or fiction. It is only when trial court convicts someone guilty, only then it means something. If High Court or Supreme Court acquits, then again it means nothing. Therefore instead of collecting inaccurate or vague data, NCRB should be collecting conviction data from trial courts, and track them while they go to High Court or Supreme Court.

Agred GBM,

I just wanted to be of any help. You must be knowing, The Obama mentality (Gun Control Supporting) is prevalent in Indian bureaucracy.

Regards

Here are the NCRB report of 2010 and 2014.