Indians For Guns

I have spent a lot of time on Google to find out the purpose of providing a UIN to the arms license. There seems to be no information available regarding the topic except that it is compulsory.
The only reason that comes to my mind is that the data of the licenses all over India would be available in one place. It does not seem to solve the obvious problems as follows.
1. If a person has more than one license issued from another state the UIN will not be able to identify that.
2. Buying of arms and ammunition on a fake license and identity. This can be detected only after the sale data is sent to the licensing authority if they bother to update the record from the dealer reports. May be they are updating the record only when the license holder presents his weapon for endorsement. If so that is bound to continue.

These and a lot of issues can be addressed if the data base is available with the authorized dealers, but that would mean that the data would be compromised and it would be much easier for a normal person to access, leading to better forgeries for fake licences.

Does any one have any idea of what the government wants to achieve except giving answers to RTI's. Or maybe they plan to develop it further to achieve some practical purposes.

Atul

These are just my opinions and to some extent speculative, to answer your questions:
1. If a person has more than one license from more than one state a separate UID will probably be granted to each one, when compared to one another, if the name of the licensee and other details such as age/date of birth, fathers name, address(in some cases), corroboratory IDs and address proofs etc. coincide, perhaps greater scrutiny will be applied to fish out those in this category.

2. Until a UID is issued no license whether real or fake will be valid. So when a fake one goes for issue of UID, it will get caught when verified.
It is my understanding that, without a UID license, a dealer will no longer sell arms or ammunition.
As for a fake Identity and license, even these will require a UID without which they will become useless.

If they want to really prevent forgeries, then a combination of such things as biometrics (eye scan/finger print), Hi res Photo, barcode and UID on a smart card type of arms license can be the answer. Dealers can check these smart cards against a database* (with limited access). Also with smart cards, all dealers and LAs can use card readers that can be used at purchase of arms and ammo and at renewals and even when traveling, to be able to swipe at airports and railway stations and checkposts etc.

The database* need not be compromised by giving access to dealers for verification if they themselves have to log in with their own Ids and passwords, and the database can be set up in such a manner so that it does not provide a list of UID license numbers, instead, when you type in a UID number, it then gives other details like date of expiry, validity area etc. With a card reader just a swipe akin to a credit card can generate a printout of a sale receipt, also unless all the details match, the transaction will not go through.
But for some reason, even in the new proposed Arms Rules 2015, they have proposed to keep the bookets instead of going for smart cards. Even Pakistan has smart card licenses.
Regards,
Anand

Anand wrote:These are just my opinions and to some extent speculative, to answer your questions:
1. If a person has more than one license from more than one state a separate UID will probably be granted to each one, when compared to one another, if the name of the licensee and other details such as age/date of birth, fathers name, address(in some cases), corroboratory IDs and address proofs etc. coincide, perhaps greater scrutiny will be applied to fish out those in this category.

Anand, if I go in for an additional license in some other state, address and id' would be different even if date of birth and father's name remain the same.

2. Until a UID is issued no license whether real or fake will be valid. So when a fake one goes for issue of UID, it will get caught when verified.
It is my understanding that, without a UID license, a dealer will no longer sell arms or ammunition.
As for a fake Identity and license, even these will require a UID without which they will become useless.

If I have a fake license I will not go to the LA for issue of UIN. It is a simple piece of white sticker paper stuck on the license booklet and in some cases in Haryana in smaller towns it is just a hand written number on the license and it becomes a license with UIN that can't be identified as fake without having access to the data base.

If they want to really prevent forgeries, then a combination of such things as biometrics (eye scan/finger print), Hi res Photo, barcode and UID on a smart card type of arms license can be the answer. Dealers can check these smart cards against a database* (with limited access). Also with smart cards, all dealers and LAs can use card readers that can be used at purchase of arms and ammo and at renewals and even when traveling, to be able to swipe at airports and railway stations and checkposts etc.

Totally agree with you but how long will it take to organize such a massive task and then to keep it in working condition all over India.

The database* need not be compromised by giving access to dealers for verification if they themselves have to log in with their own Ids and passwords, and the database can be set up in such a manner so that it does not provide a list of UID license numbers, instead, when you type in a UID number, it then gives other details like date of expiry, validity area etc. With a card reader just a swipe akin to a credit card can generate a printout of a sale receipt, also unless all the details match, the transaction will not go through.
But for some reason, even in the new proposed Arms Rules 2015, they have proposed to keep the bookets instead of going for smart cards. Even Pakistan has smart card licenses.
Regards,
Anand

Once all the dealers have a login id you can be sure the data is compromised and you can have better forgeries that would be copies of another license with all the matching details.

Atul

.....if the name of the licensee and other details such as age/date of birth, fathers name, address(in some cases), corroboratory IDs and address proofs etc. coincide,....

I've always wondered what my fathers name had to do with me? it seems that many applications for official documents in India ask for your father's name.
Once I'm an adult the only reason for them knowing who my father is... is to give me preference if my father is a big shot.

If they want to really prevent forgeries, then a combination of such things as biometrics (eye scan/finger print), Hi res Photo, barcode and UID on a smart card type of arms license can be the answer.

Hey, don't give them any more ideas

Until a UID is issued no license whether real or fake will be valid. So when a fake one goes for issue of UID, it will get caught when verified.
It is my understanding that, without a UID license, a dealer will no longer sell arms or ammunition.

Get ready for; "the computer is down, you will have to come back another time".
It happens here, in the US, occasionally.


There is a phrase for all this stuff. It is called "Security Theatre".
Just like Canada's long gun registry, it will do nothing to stop crime but the politicians can say; "see, we're doing something".

xl_target wrote:There is a phrase for all this stuff. It is called "Security Theatre".
Just like Canada's long gun registry, it will do nothing to stop crime but the politicians can say; "see, we're doing something".

XL, that is exactly the point that comes to my mind.

Atul

Biometrics is most certainly on the agenda. From what I hear, biometrics/ other data collected via Aadhar card initiative will be linked to NDAL (National Database of Arms Licensees).

From my understanding UIN is required for the successful implementation of the NDAL project as well as to eventually (once Aadhar/ other data sources are linked to NDAL) prevent and prosecute cases where multiple licenses are issued to the same person from different jurisdictions.

Personally I think the money could be better spent on developing a national database of convicted criminals/ felons.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Preventing or tracking crimes or forgeries does not appear to be the real agenda behind UIN/ UID(Aadhar) etc. Following needs to be understood and given serious thought -

1. When the data of National Crime Records Bureau itself says that crimes by legal firearms are less than 1%, then how all this is going to prevent or track crimes by targeting the law abiding? For any reasonable person, it is something difficult to understand.

2. In a democracy, the State is answerable to the citizens and not the other way round. By doing all this, the State is making citizens answerable to the government. By doing all this, UIN/ linking to UID(Aadhar)/ biometrics etc., it is changing the most important relationship between the State and the citizen. Rather than citizen creating and defining his own identity, the State is "providing" identity. It is gradually drifting to an undemocratic, totalitarian Police State.

3. Understand the unstated legal premise which is contrary to the Constitutional principles and values. The State is cleverly turning the law abiding citizens to the status of prisoners or suspects. Since the State cannot force its law abiding citizens to provide personal "measurements" like finger prints/ photographs etc., that is why Identification of Prisoners Act, 1920 was enacted to provide power to forcibly take these measurements of convicts and suspects. By creating UIN and linking to UID(Aadhar), the law abiding are being reduced to status of prisoners or suspects for "measurements" exactly as done in Identification of Prisoners Act, 1920. Overall, it is also a clever attempt to further protect the anti Constitutional provisions in the present Arms Act and its Rules.

Can anyone please provide the copy of the Notification that says UIN is compulsory for the license to be valid?

goodboy_mentor wrote:Preventing or tracking crimes or forgeries does not appear to be the real agenda behind UIN/ UID(Aadhar) etc. Following needs to be understood and given serious thought -

1. When the data of National Crime Records Bureau itself says that crimes by legal firearms are less than 1%, then how all this is going to prevent or track crimes by targeting the law abiding? For any reasonable person, it is something difficult to understand.

I think the government is focusing on the 1% rather than the 99% part.

goodboy_mentor wrote:2. In a democracy, the State is answerable to the citizens and not the other way round. By doing all this, the State is making citizens answerable to the government. By doing all this, UIN/ linking to UID(Aadhar)/ biometrics etc., it is changing the most important relationship between the State and the citizen. Rather than citizen creating and defining his own identity, the State is "providing" identity. It is gradually drifting to an undemocratic, totalitarian Police State.

In last 70 years we have created this situation. Citizens here have learnt to compromise only.

goodboy_mentor wrote:3. Understand the unstated legal premise which is contrary to the Constitutional principles and values. The State is cleverly turning the law abiding citizens to the status of prisoners or suspects. Since the State cannot force its law abiding citizens to provide personal "measurements" like finger prints/ photographs etc., that is why Identification of Prisoners Act, 1920 was enacted to provide power to forcibly take these measurements of convicts and suspects. By creating UIN and linking to UID(Aadhar), the law abiding are being reduced to status of prisoners or suspects for "measurements" exactly as done in Identification of Prisoners Act, 1920. Overall, it is also a clever attempt to further protect the anti Constitutional provisions in the present Arms Act and its Rules.

Agreed. But we will have to join hands to fight against it. The problem here is the indifference of the masses.

goodboy_mentor wrote:Can anyone please provide the copy of the Notification that says UIN is compulsory for the license to be valid?

GBM, You may be right. Because here in Gurgaon, the LA seems to be in no hurry to issue UIN's. But if some one wants it they will give it because it is a number generated by the central data base of arms license. The LA off course has to update all the available data in that central data base. According to the LA it is not the responsibility of the license holder to get the number noted on his license. But LA is responsible for updating records.


Atul

aadhaulya wrote:

goodboy_mentor wrote:Can anyone please provide the copy of the Notification that says UIN is compulsory for the license to be valid?

GBM, You may be right. Because here in Gurgaon, the LA seems to be in no hurry to issue UIN's. But if some one wants it they will give it because it is a number generated by the central data base of arms license. The LA off course has to update all the available data in that central data base. According to the LA it is not the responsibility of the license holder to get the number noted on his license. But LA is responsible for updating records.


Atul

Hi Atul Ji,

After noting your experiences I have concluded that LA of your area is a real gentleman and one of the few IASs in India who is concerned about people rather than his ego.

Regards.

ankur_ank007 wrote:After noting your experiences I have concluded that LA of your area is a real gentleman and one of the few IASs in India who is concerned about people rather than his ego.

Regards.

Ankur,
Here there is no involvement of any IAS officer, being a commiserate the LA is under the Joint Commissioner of Police and they keep getting transferred quite often.
But all the work is done by the LA at their level and the in charge of the LA is probably an inspector level police man.
I have never faced any problem with the LA starting from the issue of license till now. But I do not throw my weight around and give them due respect as I have nothing to complaint about. Also I would like to mention again that I have no connections, what so ever and just an ordinary citizen.

Atul

aadhaulya wrote:

ankur_ank007 wrote:After noting your experiences I have concluded that LA of your area is a real gentleman and one of the few IASs in India who is concerned about people rather than his ego.

Regards.

Ankur,
Here there is no involvement of any IAS officer, being a commiserate the LA is under the Joint Commissioner of Police and they keep getting transferred quite often.
But all the work is done by the LA at their level and the in charge of the LA is probably an inspector level police man.
I have never faced any problem with the LA starting from the issue of license till now. But I do not throw my weight around and give them due respect as I have nothing to complaint about. Also I would like to mention again that I have no connections, what so ever and just an ordinary citizen.

Atul

I didn't know about Gurgaon but in Lucknow the LA is the District Magistrate and here in Gandhinagar also the LA is the collector.

Regards,

Ankur,

The commissionerate system is followed in New Delhi, NCR and Maharashtra Jaipur & Kolkata, besides others. Here the top police officer is the commissioner of Police instead of IG, SSP or SP. (The areas mentioned by me are as per my knowledge that may or may not be totally accurate)
Here the cops have magisterial powers under it. Besides that, many licensing rights are also given to police officers.

Atul

Relevant info: The deadline for issue of UID/UIN number for arms licenses has been extended from 01 Oct 2015 (as issued some time in 2013) to 01 April 2016. By then all Arms licenses of all states are expected to be fed into the NDAL database and the UID number issued.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... -deadline/

Anand wrote:Relevant info: The deadline for issue of UID/UIN number for arms licenses has been extended from 01 Oct 2015 (as issued some time in 2013) to 01 April 2016. By then all Arms licenses of all states are expected to be fed into the NDAL database and the UID number issued.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... -deadline/

Anand, my point is that what does the government plan to achieve by issuing an UIN?? As of now, I do not see any practical purpose of the UIN.

Atul