Indians For Guns

Dear IFG Members,

I have read various posts on IFG which say that .38 Spl is NPB.
I read The Arms Act 1962 which says that "pistols, revolvers or carbines of any bore which can chamber .380" or .455" rimmed cartridges or service 9mm. or “.45" rimless cartridges."

By checking dimensions of .38 Spl and " .380 " I found that .38 Spl weapon especially revolver can very easily fire .380. ( although any aid is not required but spraying some paint in chamber can make the repetitive firing of .380 efficient )

SO, How is .38 Spl NPB? definition fits it right into PB, doesn't it?

If you talk about pressures generated in these ammo, then what about .380 low pressure loading, it is technically still a .380 ..

SENIOR AND EXPERT MEMBERS can throw light into this matter...people like me would benefit a great deal in coming years.

THANK YOU!!!!

shooter.177cal wrote:By checking dimensions of .38 Spl and " .380 " I found that .38 Spl weapon especially revolver can very easily fire .380. ( although any aid is not required but spraying some paint in chamber can make the repetitive firing of .380 efficient )

. . .

If you talk about pressures generated in these ammo, then what about .380 low pressure loading, it is technically still a .380 ..

shooter.177cal:

You will need to go back and check the dimensions of .380 and .38 Special again. Please note:





Please note from this, that the .380 (otherwise known as the 38 Smith and Wesson; the designations .380 and 38-200 denote a British adaptation that included loads with different bullet weights. If you want to know more about this, please read the Wikis on these topics.) is shorter and fatter than the .38 Special.

Part of your confusion might be that .380 is ".38 Smith & Wesson," and .38 Special is actually ".38 Smith & Wesson Special." This may lead you to believe that the .38 Special is a suped up or hotter .38 Smith & Wesson. This is not the case.

Part of the confusion is that Colt would name their .38 S&W-derived loadings as a Colt cartridge. Even though the rounds would be interchangeable, with only a bullet of different shape and/or weight, the name of the cartridge would be changed from S&W to Colt.

However, when Smith & Wesson developed the .38 Special, they did not develop it from the .38 S&W. but instead from the .38 Colt Long, which was a cartridge of similar size, but actually smaller in diameter. Also, where the .38 S&W uses a .361" diameter bullet, the .38 Special bullet is .357" in diameter. Look at the two pictures above, and you will see how even though the rim diameters are the same, the bodies of the cases differ.

This is because the US Army used the Colt M1892 DA Revolver chambered in .38 Colt Long to replace the old 45 Colt Single Action Army (or, "Peacemaker") in Army service. However, when fighting the Moro tribesmen in the Philippines at the turn of the century, the Army found the .38 Long Colt lacking in power. Smith & Wesson, hoping to cash in on Army service revolver contracts, modified the .38 Long Colt cartridge, rather than their own .38 S&W, for more power. You can see this from the operating pressures of the two cartridges: the .38 S&W operates at 14,500 psi, where the .38 Special operates at 17,000 psi.

For comparison of the sizes, consult this picture:



Now, for chambering:

The .380 revolver should not chamber a .38 Special cartridge. The .38 Special cartridge will enter the .380 cylinder, but there is a ridge and narrower part of the 380 chamber that is closer to bullet diameter -- which is too small to accept the longer .38 Special case that measures .379" diameter. You may be able to force a .38 Special into a .380 cylinder, but it still is not safe to fire. If you can force it in, either the cylinder is badly worn, or it has been reamed out by someone to accept the .38 Special cartridge. The 380 revolver is not made to accept the higher pressure cartridge, and the case is smaller in diameter and will surely bulge, and perhaps split if fired. So it is unsafe to attempt to shoot a .38 Special in a .380 revolver.

Then, a 380 cartridge should be too large in diameter to chamber in a 38 Special revolver. However, you might find a 38 Special revolver that has a chamber either worn or sloppy that will permit the chambering of the 380 cartridge. This is still unsafe to do! Even though you might be able to push the 380 cartridge into the 28 Special chamber, note that it will be very tight. The chamber has to be cut larger than the cartridge so that, when fired, the cartridge can expand a thousandth or two so the bullet can come out of the crimped end of the cartridge. If the chamber is so tight, the cartridge mouth cannot expand and the pressures will rise very high, because the bullet can't come out of the cartridge easily. This is dangerous, as well.

So, the bottom line is, only someone foolish will try to fire a .38 Special cartridge in a 380 revolver, and only someone foolish will try to fire a 380 cartridge in a 38 Special revolver.

The PB/NPB issue is meant to keep military arms out of the hands of civilians, a policy inherited from the British rule. This subject has been addressed many times here.

Since the 38 Special is not a military round and since you are not supposed to use 380 ammunition in it (because it is unsafe, if it is even possible), this is where your confusion regarding the PB/NPB designations for the 380 and 38 Special lie.

Did you compare the "rimmed .380" revolver cartridges, as mentioned in the Arms Act, with the .38 Spl.?These are, as mentioned by Timmy above also called .38-200, .38 S&W etc. did you perchance erroneously compare the dimensions of the other .380 cartridge, namely the .380 ACP also called the 9mm Kurtz, or 9x17mm or 9 mm Short.

As best as I can remember, I had a discussion with a gunsmith friend of mine in America in 2001/2002, about this same issue. We could not get a .38 S&W cartridge to chamber in an Unmodified .38 Spl. Calibered S&W model 10 Revolver. The dimensions were such that the cartridge would partially enter the chamber and the base of the case was just too large. In that condition it was not possible to close the revolving chamber, into firing position.

There is a possibility of another confusion, IIRC, several thousand S&W Victory model and M&P revolvers which were originally chambered for the .38-200/.380 Rimmed/ .38 S&W, were re chambered to accept .38 Spl. Cartridges for the American market. The modification included elongation of the original chamber, but the narrower .38 Spl. Cartidge did have some looseness near the base, and the bullets were also slightly smaller so accuracy suffered too.
Anand

I thank both of you for detailed replies.

I thought of .380" as .380ACP and not .38 S&W. (even if 1962 act was as per british era...simply stating .380 makes the act questionable, i think because when generally people say 380, it's 9mm short or .380 ACP)

Then I compared ..380 ACP with .38 Spl and found that dimensions were pretty same.

.38 Spl
Parent case .38 Long Colt
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .357 in (9.1 mm)
Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Base diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Rim diameter .44 in (11 mm)
Rim thickness .058 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.155 in (29.3 mm)
Overall length 1.55 in (39 mm)

.380 ACP
Case type Rimless, straight
Bullet diameter .355 in (9.0 mm)
Neck diameter .373 in (9.5 mm)
Base diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm)
Case length .680 in (17.3 mm)
Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm)

So that led me to the confusion.

shooter.177cal:

Note your quote: "of any bore which can chamber .380" or .455" rimmed cartridges or service 9mm"

The 380 ACP is neither rimmed, nor is it a service 9mm. (Although it is 9mm, it is not service 9mm.)

Also, while the most of the dimensions are similar (other than the rim), look at the case length. I guarantee you, if you were holding them in your hand, you would not confuse them!

That said, .357" bullet diameter is very close to 9mm, or .35" bullet diameter.

You may find it interesting to note that the original parent cartridge of the 38 Special, the .38 Long Colt, used a .354" diameter bullet, and Colt did so for many years to the time of around WW2, when they switched to the now accepted diameter of .357".

For my old Colt .38 Special revolvers, I use 147 gr 9mm Luger bullets, which are sized to .356" they fit into the cylinder throats perfectly, a finger push, and are pretty accurate. Until I can work up the bucks for a nice Hensley & Gibbs gang mold that will throw .356" cast wadcutters, these will have to do!