Indians For Guns

Hello everybody,I am in urgent need of help, advice and suggestions about a serious matter.

My father expired in 2002. He is survived by two legal heirs, my mother and me.

I have now come to know that he owned 4 guns. I have come to know that they were always safely stashed away in a vault in my ancestral house.

I grew up in Delhi and had never seen the guns in childhood, even when we went back to my hometown together with my father, prior to 2002, while he was still alive. Due to personal problems, beyond the scope of a detailed explanation here, I have not been able to go back to my hometown till now, July 2013. The last time I visited was with my mother in 2000, while my father was still alive. However, I'm planning a visit in August 2013. Now, this comes with it's own set of problems :

* We are not in possession of any license of either one of the 4 guns.

* The licenses were most probably misplaced by one of my father's trusted aides.

* The licenses could also be in the vault where the guns are kept. But they would ofcourse, be expired by now.

* We have not got the serial numbers, or any papers that would indicate the gun's model, make and history.

* We have not seen the guns and would be opening the vault where they are kept for the first time.

* We have not been able to travel to our hometown and due to various reasons.

As you can see, it puts us in a rather vulnerable and confusing situation. I personally have not been very fond of guns till now, and my mother kinda abhors them. We have not bothered to learn much about them ever too. But now I guess it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Been doing some reading on here to help myself take an educated, well thought-of decision… but I'm still confused about it all. And everybody I know in the real world, knows somebody who has their own opinion and everybody's 'half--knowledge' is making me go round in circles.

I realize we have to surrender/deposit/relinquish all the guns first. I would however like to obtain a license for the guns and keep it as a ''Family Heirloom".

I would be very indebted if any of the kind, learned and helpful members on this forum would answer a few queries for me and make this entire ordeal a tad easier for me to bear. Your advice would be most appreciated on the following points :

1 ) Do we need to surrender the guns to an Arms Dealer or to the Police Station ?

2 ) Do we need to inform them beforehand or go directly to wherever with the firearms ?

3 ) Will they accept the guns without a license accompanying them ?

4 ) What is the proper procedure to surrender/deposit/relinquish a dead person's firearm ? with and without license…

5 ) Do we need to meet the Arms Magistrate/DM and explain the delay in surrendering/depositing the firearms ? or an application will do ?

6 ) Do we need to hire a lawyer for the said purpose ? Or can we do this by ourselves with some friendly help…

7 ) What would be the procedure for me to apply for the license to the guns ? How exactly do I get the guns transferred to my name under the 'Family Heirloom' category ?

8 ) Since I live in Delhi, I would like to transfer the license to Delhi after obtaining it. Is it true that the permits I need to do that come from the MHA and MEA and are very hard to come by ?

9 ) Would I be better off applying for a license here in Delhi, where I live ? Any hopes of the Delhi Police handing one out for a family heirloom easily ?

10 ) What should be my course of action ?

I do hope I can peacefully surrender the guns, get a license of my own, get the guns transferred to my name, transfer them to Delhi, share the pictures and feel like I truly belong amongst the Indians-For-Guns community in a few months. Any help or advice on any matter pertaining to the above would be most appreciated. Will keep you all updated.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post and thank you in advance for your replies.

regards,

A

Do we need to surrender the guns to an Arms Dealer or to the Police Station

You may surrender to arms dealer. Please read Section 21 of Arms Act 1959 and Rule 46 of Arms Rules 1962. You will find answers to most of your questions in these two provisions and this forum. You may have to give some credible and convincing justification for such a long delay for such a "discovery" in the vault. Try to locate the original arms licenses. Sitting and talking with some experienced local lawyer in you hometown is not a bad idea since contravention of Section 21 of Arms Act 1959 invites a jail term.

smokinguns wrote: 1 ) Do we need to surrender the guns to an Arms Dealer or to the Police Station ?

Surrender it to an arms dealer. But he might need a copy of the original arms license

smokinguns wrote: 2 ) Do we need to inform them beforehand or go directly to wherever with the firearms ?

Talk to an arms dealer and have them agree before physically taking possession of the weapons.

smokinguns wrote: 3 ) Will they accept the guns without a license accompanying them ?

Not sure there. As GBM said, a consult with a lawyer might help you here...

smokinguns wrote: 4 ) What is the proper procedure to surrender/deposit/relinquish a dead person's firearm ? with and without license…

The proper procedure is to deposit these with an arms dealer or the police and then get them transferred later.

smokinguns wrote: 5 ) Do we need to meet the Arms Magistrate/DM and explain the delay in surrendering/depositing the firearms ? or an application will do ?

Not sure, again a lawyer will not hurt here.

smokinguns wrote: 6 ) Do we need to hire a lawyer for the said purpose ? Or can we do this by ourselves with some friendly help…

Get a lawyer

smokinguns wrote: 7 ) What would be the procedure for me to apply for the license to the vest pistol in Bihar ? How exactly do I get the vest pistol transferred to my name under the 'Family Heirloom' category ?

If you live in Delhi then apply in Delhi and then get the pistols released on your Delhi license later.

smokinguns wrote: 8 ) Since I live in Delhi, I would like to transfer the license to Delhi after obtaining it. Is it true that the permits I need to do that come from the MHA and MEA and are very hard to come by ?

Get a Delhi License. They have explained the process on their website. Once your weapon is deposited you will get a slip, use that as part of your application to state that you are transferring your father's weapons. Then you will get an NOC from Delhi to bring the weapon to Delhi and a Transport License from Bihar...

smokinguns wrote: 9 ) Would I be better off applying for a license here in Delhi, where I live ? Any hopes of the Delhi Police handing one out for a family heirloom easily ?

Yes.

smokinguns wrote: 10 ) What should be my first action ?

Get a lawyer. Find the missing arms licenses or have the lawyer get copies of these from the DM. Deposit the weapons. Apply for a license, transfer the weapons.

Good luck, do let us know what happens.

PS Why not get the rifles transferred as well?

Hi smokinguns
it seems yours faimly had that bloody rivalary with some otther party thats why your father send you to delhi for peacefull life.

Hi, you first go to the arms clerk of your area obtain the license numbers from his register. File an fir that you have misplaced or are not able to find it after the demise of your father. Then write an application to the sdm sighting these reasons and asking permission to sell. So that u can deposit the firearms with the dealer. Then apply for the license and get the guns transfered on your name.
Thanks
Ash

Since you were aware of the existence of the weapons in you ancestral home and have not acted as per laws you may be charged for committing an offence under the Arms Act which could be very serious. After you father's demise the natural course of action would have been to consult a lawyer on any matter of succession/inheritance or otherwise incidental to his death. Ignorance of law will not be accepted as a ground for condoning an offence committed.
If you did not know about the existence of the guns and have discovered them only now; and have immediately taken steps as per the Arms Act; would you have had some defense from criminal prosecution.

The most important thing before doing anything is to talk with a lawyer to ensure that you proceed in a manner so that you are not violating Section 21 of Arms Act 1959. As per Section 21, the legal heirs are required to deposit the firearm within a reasonable time. I do not think lapse of so many years can be reasonable time.

Conscious possession of illegal firearm is violation of Arms Act 1959. If legal heir is conscious of the fact that deceased had a firearm and has not deposited as per the Section 21 within reasonable time, then his possession of firearm is illegal. But if the legal heir for some reason is not aware of the fact that deceased had a firearm, then the moment he discovers that the deceased has left behind firearm, he should deposit as per Section 21 within reasonable time. These are only my thoughts. Before doing anything, should consult an experienced lawyer and proceed as per his advice.

Thank you all for your replies. Very kind of you. I already feel at home here, amongst good-hearted people.

I'm reading the Section 21 of Arms Act 1959 and Rule 46 of Arms Rules 1962 as suggested by everyone in detail. I'll post any queries later.

I'll make a roadmap and have you guys look at it.

smokinguns,

Write an application to the local licensing authority that you have been away for a long time.That your father passed away while you were away.That you have just come back and discovered the guns owned by your dad.That you were aware that your dad owned some firearms at one point of time but had no idea if he had them when he passed away.That this is your first visit to the house after the death of your father and that you have found the guns locked up in a safe.Seek permission to deposit the arms with an arms dealer or at a police station.Append the Arms licenses held by your father to the application along with the death certificate.

Smokinguns,
i second WTP's opinion on the questions you posed. In my hometown about a month back a same sort of case was being dealt with. There was this family which had migrated from Uttrakhand about 20 years back, carried with them a few cupboards which had been lying with the family. While moving out the cupboards were not checked for their contents. few moths back they decided to break the locks and have a look into the contents, they came across a rifle, a couple of shotguns and a a couple of pistols to which they were unable to find any documentation/licences.
They wrote to the DM of the district stating the same who formed a team comprising the city magaistrate and the circle officer of the said area to recover the weapons and get them recorded and stored into malkhana(nazar).
i would advise you to do as WTP has said.

Thanks and regards,

Pran80

Get a lawyer and start the paper work as recommended and try for a lice these are your heirlooms try hanging on to them. It happens a lot follow the rules all should be fine a drag though Good luck

My God! As interesting as a Hercule Poirot mystery! There are so many permutations to this that it would be nigh impossible to get a clear cut idea.

However, if you apply logic and be patient with dealing with this predicament, I don't see you having any problems at all.

Sir my father died in 2014 he had left behind a licence a 2 bbl gun and his licence which was valid till 2015 i know i was to deposit it if i was selling but if i was selling but i had two step who were americans stole all his identification except for gun licence which was in old address but i had promptly applied for gun licence after appllying for the new Id of my father but everything got delayed i had applied for trainning in KSRA but delayed for trainning almost 3 months then i was further delayed for 2 months the licence of my father got expired and i could he time of my licence now i had gone to the police to deposit the.y refused i tried to deposit in arms dealer he refused he said he will allow me sell it to him i afterwards went o ppoice commissoner office and gave a letter that i am selling this weapon which is in my custody. Now its almost 2 months and i am still waiting should i wait. panicking should i do

Selling a weapon which you do not possess legally ? Do yourself a favour and dont do it . The best thing would be to get some legal advice, get all the applications and letters that you have given to a good lawyer . Once the license has expired one cannot hold on to the arms , if a license is going to expire one should deposit the wepon and get them back once it has been renewed.

raghuveer9040 wrote:Sir my father died in 2014 he had left behind a licence a 2 bbl gun and his licence which was valid till 2015 i know i was to deposit it if i was selling but if i was selling but i had two step who were americans stole all his identification except for gun licence which was in old address but i had promptly applied for gun licence after appllying for the new Id of my father but everything got delayed i had applied for trainning in KSRA but delayed for trainning almost 3 months then i was further delayed for 2 months the licence of my father got expired and i could he time of my licence now i had gone to the police to deposit the.y refused i tried to deposit in arms dealer he refused he said he will allow me sell it to him i afterwards went o ppoice commissoner office and gave a letter that i am selling this weapon which is in my custody. Now its almost 2 months and i am still waiting should i wait. panicking should i do

Please read Sections 5(2)(a)&(b), 21 of Arms Act 1959 and Rule 46 of Arms Rules 1962 very carefully. Sit with some experienced and prudent lawyer with copies of all the letters you have submitted till now and proceed accordingly.

rajaiswal92 wrote:if a license is going to expire one should deposit the wepon and get them back once it has been renewed.

If you are the license holder, you have applied for renewal and have proof of submitted the renewal application, you do not need to deposit the weapon. You have done your job by applying for renewal, it is now the job of the licensing authority to renew your license. You cannot be held legally liable for the delay done by licensing authority for renewing the license.