Indians For Guns

I am in Tamil Nadu and I am a member of the local rifle club in my town. Many members in my club have bought/imported .177 air rifles from USA without paying customs duty and they used one of the international courier services for shipping.

I want to buy one AirForce Condor .177 air rifle. I do not want to ask the retailer in USA who sells the rifle to me to use FedEx or other courier services to bring/ship the rifle to India. I do not want to pay these shipping companies extrordinarily large shipping fees. I am going to ask the USA retailer to ship the air rifle (ground shipping is free) to my friend in USA, a citizen of USA, and ask him to bring the rifle with him in checked in baggage when he visits India next time.

I am going to ask the rifle retailer in USA from whom I buy my air rifle to add the following to the air rifle invoice:
1)My name and address in India
2)My friend's name and address in USA
3)My credit card number, credit card company address in India
4)My rifle club's name and address in Tamil Nadu
5)My rifle club membership number

I will send to my friend in USA the following documents prior to his departure from USA to India and ask him to keep them in his person. He will present these documents and the air rifle in his checked in baggage to the customs officers in Madras airport:
6)My rifle club membership card copy
7)Letter from rifle club that I can import .177 caliber air rifles without incurring customs duty in India
8)Copy of my credit card statement with the charge from the USA retailer listed
9)Copy of the Arms Act that says air rifles in .177 caliber can be imported by rifle club members without customs duty
10)Original retailer's invoice of this air rifle in my name (with details listed in 1 thru 5)
11)My Tamil Nadu driver's license copy
12)My town water and electricity bills received in my name

.177 can be imported in to India by anyone. In my opinion, the worst case scenario would be that my friend would be asked to pay customs duty under the premise that he is bringing the rifle for his own use by using my name and rifle club membership.

I request my fellow members of this forum to advise me on the legality and ease of bringing the air rifle to India under this mode. I would be very thankful for your advice.

Subbiah

the worst can happen you will get the rifle impounded, as only the person who is a club member can bring it in.
even worst that can happen the chap who brings it under your club id, could get harrased for pertanding to be you. which can be looked upon fraud.

maybe you should consult your friend if he is willing to be grilled and detained for few hours.

this is the worst case thingie. it may never happen, but then this is shinning India.lol so anything can happen.

+1
Your friend is bringing it back in his baggage, not you. So your club membership and proof of purchase isn't going to be much of a help, IMHO.
It is he who will have to face the music, including impounding. Worse, he may be treated as a dealer/importer if he shows your documents.

Or simply nothing may happen, as nagarifle says

Go ahead only if you are mentally prepared to get it impounded and fight this matter to its logical conclusion in courts. Else avoid it. Anyways you have a very good case and appreciate your well thought out idea.

9)Copy of the Arms Act that says air rifles in .177 caliber can be imported by rifle club members without customs duty

Arms Act 1959 does not talk only about .177 air rifles but about "any arms or ammunition". Since Arms Act 1959 is a specific law for arms and ammunition(it includes air guns/air pistols/ air rifles and their ammunition), the matters of export or import of arms and ammunition is very clear and specific in Section 10(1) and 10(1)(a) of Arms Act 1959. The concerned provisions are produced hereunder:

(1) No person shall bring into, or take out of, India by sea, land or air any arms or ammunition unless he holds in this behalf a licence issued in accordance with the provisions of this Act and the rules made thereunder:

Provided that---

(a) a person who is entitled by virtue of this Act or any other law for the time being in force to have, or is not prohibited by this Act or such other law from having, in his possession any arms or ammunition, may without a licence in this behalf bring into, or take out of, India such arms or ammunition in reasonable quantities for his own private use;

It is well settled proposition that all laws flow from the Constitution and are constitutional unless proven unconstitutional. It follows that the above provision of Arms Act 1959 is flowing from the Liberty guaranteed by the Constitution in Article 21. Thus bringing in or taking out arms or ammunition for personal use is part of fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution.

Also the Section 11(2)(u) of The Customs Act, 1962 says not to contravene any law for the time being in force. Thus Customs cannot go against/contravene the provisions of Section 10 of Arms Act 1959.

the worst can happen you will get the rifle impounded, as only the person who is a club member can bring it in.

I do not think that it is mentioned anywhere that only the club member can bring it in person. If that were the case, these courier services would not be in a position to ship our rifles from, say, USA, to us in India. In my proposal my friend is acting as a human courier whereas in all your gun imports shipping companies are acting as couriers. So, I am not sure where and how the distinction is made.

maybe you should consult your friend if he is willing to be grilled and detained for few hours.

Yeah, I may have to prepare my friend mentally! Would HATE to put him thru all that harassment. Are there lawyers in Madras who might be in a position to offer their legal opinion on whether a human courier can bring in my rifle? Customs consultants who might have worked in Customs earlier? I would appreciate if any of you can provide me with a few contacts.

Your friend is bringing it back in his baggage, not you. So your club membership and proof of purchase isn't going to be much of a help, IMHO. It is he who will have to face the music, including impounding. Worse, he may be treated as a dealer/importer if he shows your documents.

I disagree, sir. I do not think it is that very simple to harass someone. These courier companies take all these club membership documents from us, prove that the guns are indeed meant for us and they do not suffer problems at customs. Why should a human courier be subject to any such harassment? My friend bearing all the documents proving that the rifle is meant for me is indeed doing the same job done by these courier shipping services, right? Again, the rifle could very well get impounded! Not denying that. I would then have to visit customs in Bangalore or Delhi in person, present all the documents all over again and then take delivery of the gun. Isn't it the same that happened to many of us in this forum for one reason or another who had their guns shipped through courier services?
Also, the way I understand the importing of air rifles, anyone can import .177 air rifles. If they are not a member of a rifle club, they would be charged customs duty whereas rifle club members enjoy no customs duty. My friend is not exactly bringing in anything that is banned!

Anyways you have a very good case and appreciate your well thought out idea.

Thank you for your appreciation! Yes, I have been fine tuning my strategy for past very many months! You do sound like a lawyer. Can I contact you to better equip my friend to face the customs when he arrives please?

Thus bringing in or taking out arms or ammunition for personal use is part of fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution. Also the Section 11(2)(u) of The Customs Act, 1962 says not to contravene any law for the time being in force. Thus Customs cannot go against/contravene the provisions of Section 10 of Arms Act 1959.

I hear you. But, there was this recent Supreme Court ruling that pretty much gave the Central Government the authority to restrict import of arms and ammunition, right? We being an immature democracy and having many insurgencies all over the country make even the courts give the benefit of the doubt to the Government's point of view, even if that view tramples on our constitutional guarantees/rights. Sigh!
Again, goodboy_mentor, can I contact you, sir/madame? Would give me more confidence if I can have a seasoned advocate guiding me in this issue.
Restrictions on the fps rating of air rifles:
Another reason why I listed the name of the rifle I am thinking of importing, Airforce Condor, was that I wanted to hear your opinion on the government restricting the fps rating of the air guns and impounding those that exceed 1000 fps. Not sure if this is for real or just a rumour. I did not find much in this forum about anyone complaining about their guns being confiscated due to their guns exceeding 1000 fps. If anyone can please shed some light on that issue also, I would very much appreciate your help.
Subbiah

when importing any airrifle the customs have the right for it to be tested via the police etc to see if it will pass the ideal wood test regardless of make or model.
there is a vast different to a person bringing a arms of any type with them and sending via courier service.

like the man from mars say if you can not afford it do not take the risk. and if you take the risk its 100% yours and no blame to others.

Customs does have the right to subject the rifle to ideal wood test. Yes, I do agree on this point. But, it would be the same whether the courier service or a person brings it over. Ideally, courier service is expected to wait for 10 days or so until this test is completed and then collect the rifle from Customs and then bring it back to the buyer. Whether they take all that effort can be debated! Many members have posted that this last leg was something that they personally undertook when their rifles was sent by courier service.
nagarifle, other than what has been already said, if you can please add more to your statement that

there is a vast different to a person bringing a arms of any type with them and sending via courier service.

, I would appreciate your help sir. What are the differences in your opinion?

like the man from mars say if you can not afford it do not take the risk. and if you take the risk its 100% yours and no blame to others.

Whether it is courier services or a person bringing in your rifle, the risk has "always" been entirely ours. Courier services are not going to run around arguing with Customs about deal wood test or fps rating. Who is there to blame when the rifle does not show up when it is shipped thru courier services?
Based on what I have heard from you all is that there does not seem to be an explicit reason why a person rather than a courier service can not bring in a rifle bought by a rifle club member when the person has all the documents on his hands.
I would very much appreciate it if anyone who got his rifle impounded due to deal wood test failure could please post his/her experiences. Are there threads in this forum that specifically state that such and such rifle models were confiscated? I would very much appreciate your help on this issue.

Can I contact you to better equip my friend to face the customs when he arrives please?

You may contact a local lawyer who is familiar with the customs matters and Constitutional law. But you might end up spending more money fighting this matter in courts than the money you will be saving by not following the usual courier route. Isn't it?

I do not wish to discourage you but it seems you are overlooking the following:

In addition to Indian laws/ rules your friend needs to take into account local (USA) laws. For one thing, Airguns may not be legal/ have certain restrictions in certain jurisdictions. I believe that this is the case in New York city and if he lives there/ will be passing through there, he needs to look up the procedure to be followed/ or if will be allowed at all etc.

Also, since the airgun mentioned is a PCP there would be TSA regulations w.r.t the carriage of cylinder(s) in check-in baggage. Unless I am mistaken the rule followed by TSA was that the cylinder valve must be removed so that the inspecting official can take a look inside the empty cylinder - at least this is what was being followed in 2008, please go to the TSA website and read up on their current policy.

HTH

Cheers!
Abhijeet

subbiah, why you are taking so much burden in shipping a pcp through your friend in us.First of all ask members in this forum is it possible to release pcp like airforce condor through customs.All your efforts will go worthless if it gets confiscated.If somebody purchased it via pyramid air ,go through the easiest way.Just check the legality first.Money is valuable for every one.Isn't it????

Regards
Renjith.

Hi Renjith and Abhijeet,

Thank you for your contribution. Sorry about the delay in writing to you. I had this thread to send me notification if/when someone contributed but did not get any notification. Again, sorry for the delay.

Here is TSA's website on firearms:
http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information ... ammunition
In the above page it is clearly stated that: "Compressed Air Guns, including rifles and pistols (to include paintball markers) - Carried in checked luggage without compressed air cylinder attached is allowed in Checked Baggage".

Here is NY state police firearms website:
http://troopers.ny.gov/Firearms/
Does not say much about anyone prohibited from taking firearms thru JFK.

Here is NJ state firearms website:
http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_trans.html
These regulations are more pronounced compared to the above two web pages. Here also there is no "prohibition" on someone lawfully taking a firearm through the State of NJ.

Here is someone who took firearm through JFK in NY state and his conversations with a policeman in JFK airport about legality of taking a gun through JFK as recently as September 2012:
http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php? ... a-handgun/
===============
I know this is an old post but did not want to start a new one..

I just spent the morning researching for myself the risks of a NJ resident flying out of JFK airport. I spoke with the airline, the tsa and port authority Police. All told me it will not be an issue as long as I followed the rules for locked case, unloaded ect.

I went a step further and got in touch with the Port Authority Police desk sgt at JFK. The guy who would be responsible for arresting me if it came time to do so... In addition to regurdgitating the rules we had a candid conversation about past issues and the present status of Traveling with handguns thru JFK and explained the process. He said it is routine and would not be an issue.

He said most likely when I declare the firearm at the airline counter PA Police will be called over.. ( this is not something I have read about happening at other airports).They will verify I legally possess the handgun in NJ AND that I traveled DIRECTLY to the airport. He mentioned people coming to NY with a Handgun staying a few days and then attempting to fly out as the ones who have an issue...

I ask how they verify the directly to part and he said that coming from NJ with a NJ Drivers Lic they would take my word for it. I mentioned getting a Toll receipt and he said that was a good idea.

If anyone else from NJ has flown out of JFK or LGA recently I would be curious to here about your experience.

I am Traveling alone this trip... No wife, kids or colleagues so if the whole plan goes south so be it... I don't wan to be intimidated out of my right to keep and bear arms....
================

Well, based on what you suggested as the problem spots, I did my research and did not come up with any serious issues at all in USA. You might have heard about US Supreme Court ruling on Fourth Amendment, the right to bear arms, as a personal right and NOT a government right. So, at the end of the day, this is what all US regulations have to go by.

Also, my friend does not have to go through NY or NJ. He lives in NV and will be flying out of NV or CA.

In this forum, the only thing I am not entirely convinced about is whether an air rifle in .177 has "ever" been confiscated by Customs here in India for failing the Wood Test. So far I have not found any. If anyone can point out a few threads, kindly let me know. All the threads that I already read on say something about receiving a note from Customs to visit them and then taking possession of the air rifle. So, if you ever got your rifle confiscated and was unable to get it out, whether it failed the Wood Test or not, please do contribute. I would be thankful to you.

Also, came across another site here In India http://relishsports.com that helps customers in India who have rifle club membership get .177 air rifles imported. They have AirForce Condor .177 listed. Thinking of contacting them before deciding my mode of shipping or having the rifle brought here, however you want to look at it.

At the end of the day, we all need to stand up for our "rights"! I agree that things might not be smooth sailing. But, if we all hide under the desk fearing the bureaucrats that cite flimsy rules, we would make it even more harder for folks like us in the future. As the man who has written his experience in JFK above, quoted by me in Italics, we all need to stand up for our rights.

Subbiah