Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protection

The legal aspects of owning, shooting, importing arms/ ammo and other related legal aspects as well as any other legal queries. Please note: This INCLUDES all arms licensing issues/ queries!
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Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protection

Post by desaibhargav » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:50 pm

My father holds a license in Form III for the purpose of self protection. He owns a revolver under this license. Recently, my name has been added as a Retainer in his Arms License according to Rule 13(1) of Indian Arms Rules, 1962. Please let me know whether:

1. Can I carry this licensed revolver independently(without the presence of my father) as a retainer?
- If yes, can I carry the revolver loaded?

2. Can I use the revolver for the purpose of my self protection?

3. What are the rights of a Retainer in the License for Sports/Protection/Display in Form III?

Rule 13(1) of Indian Arms Rules, 1962 is as follows:
13. Of retainers.—(1) When the owner of any arms or ammunition licensed in Form III
applies for permitting his agent, relative or employee to possess or carry any of the arms
or ammunition covered by the licence for sport, protection or display, on his behalf,
whether in attendance on him or not, and in circumstances different from those
mentioned in the proviso to Section 3, such agent, relative or employee may, if the
licensing authority considers it fit, be shown as a retainer by entering his name and other
particulars in Column 6 of the owner's licence in Form III.

Please answer my questions as there is a lot of confusion even with the police officials regarding the rights of the retainer of arms license in form III.

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by jonahpach » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:35 pm

The very logic of allowing a person to possess a firearm through retainership suggests that the person possessing the weapon is allowed all the legal rights of a person who has the firearm in his name. But I have heard that owning a gun by retainership has been disallowed in many states due to a Home Ministry Notification..
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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by goodboy_mentor » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:18 pm

1. Can I carry this licensed revolver independently(without the presence of my father) as a retainer?
- If yes, can I carry the revolver loaded?
Why do you think you cannot?
2. Can I use the revolver for the purpose of my self protection?
Why do you think you cannot "use it" for your self defense? Is self defense not your fundamental right guaranteed by Article 21 of the Constitution of India? Are Arms Act 1959 and its Rules overriding the Constitution of India?
3. What are the rights of a Retainer in the License for Sports/Protection/Display in Form III?
Except that you are not legal owner of the weapon, you have whatever rights the Rule 13(1)of Arms Rules 1962 says. Also read Section 3 of Arms Act 1959 wherein it says that a person may, without himself holding a licence, carry any firearm or ammunition in the presence, or under the written authority, of the holder of the licence for repair or for renewal of the licence or for use by such holder.
Please answer my questions as there is a lot of confusion even with the police officials regarding the rights of the retainer of arms license in form III.
Which Section of Arms Act or its Rules is causing the confusion?
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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by desaibhargav » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:39 am

i am residing in gujarat. the local police officials here say that a retainer can carry the gun only in the presence of the licence holder, or the retainer can carry the weapon alone only for the purpose of renewal or repairing...

how can i prove in front of them that i am legally authorised to carry the gun independently of the license holder?

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by goodboy_mentor » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:04 pm

What does "on his behalf, whether in attendance on him or not, and in circumstances different from those mentioned in the proviso to Section 3" mean in Rule 13(1) of Indian Arms Rules 1962? Politely ask them to read it, challenge their common sense but do not challenge their ego.
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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by desaibhargav » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:13 am

thanks goodboy_mentor..

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by desaibhargav » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:15 am

what does "IN CIRCUNSTANCES DIFFERENT FROM THOSE MENTIONED IN PROVISO TO SECTION 3" mean?? in Rule 13(1)

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:46 pm

Just think what are the circumstances that are different from those mentioned in Section 3 of Arms Act 1959. It means all lawful circumstances that are different from those mentioned in Section 3 of Arms Act 1959. Ask them to tell you what are those circumstances (with proper reference to particular Section of Arms Act or its Rules), that are different from those mentioned in Section 3 of Arms Act 1959?

The points to be noted are that a retainer can:

1. possess or carry the firearm
2. possess or carry of firearm is on behalf of the license holder
3. the license holder may or may not be physically present with you
4. possess or carry of firearm is in circumstances different from those mentioned in Section 3 of Arms Act 1959

There can be so many lawful circumstances that are different from those mentioned in Section 3 of Arms Act 1959. For example in many cases security guards or bank guards posses the firearms as retainers on behalf of their organization or bank. When they go home after office hours, they usually carry the firearm with them to their home. On the way if attacked by criminals, will they not use the firearm for self defense?
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by jonahpach » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:28 pm

Here's another query for goodboy regarding Retainer licences.. One problem faced by most common folk here in Mizoram is that none of the gunshops in the state stock ammunition other than .22, .32, 12 bore. Owners of guns of calibres other than those mentioned used to previously get their licences retained to their younger sons or friends who were travelling to Kolkata/Delhi etc. to buy ammunition. Recently gun shops have stopped issueing ammunition to such licences which are under retainership. Is there any particular reason behind this? How and why have the rules changed?
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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by goodboy_mentor » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:10 am

The arms dealership license has its own terms and conditions, on the basis of which arms dealers are selling arms and ammunition. It would be good to ask them why they have stopped selling. Also the rights of retainer under Rule 13(1) of Arms Rules 1962 are basically to possess or carry the firearms and ammunition on behalf of the license holder. Best would be to convince the arms dealers in Mizoram to stock ammunition of other calibers or license holders themselves travel to buy the ammunition.
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by HARDIK999 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:56 pm

I want to ask that i have my name in my father's revolver licence as a Retainer so can u Please tell the rules and regulation regarding the name as a Retainer and tell me everything , and if my father is outside India than also i can hold the weapon or not and i can use the weapon or not for my safty ...

Please tell me the rules ..

Thanking you.
Hardik..

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by goodboy_mentor » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:06 pm

Please tell the rules and regulation regarding the name as a Retainer and tell me everything
Then please make the effort to read everything! :) It means please carefully read Arms Act 1959, Arms Rules 1962 and the Notifications.
if my father is outside India than also i can hold the weapon or not and i can use the weapon or not for my safty ...
So long the license is valid and you are its retainer, it means you have the rights of the retainer.
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by HARDIK999 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:16 pm

Dear goodboy_mentor,
I am from Gujarat and Please tell me that i can hold personally my father's arm to my office without the presence of my father for my protection and i have my name as a retianer in my father's license

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by goodboy_mentor » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:12 pm

It does not matter you are from which state since Arms Act 1959 and its Arms Rules 1962 are same all over India. I would request you to please read this thread carefully from the beginning. The very questions you are asking are already discussed in this thread.
"If my mother tongue is shaking the foundations of your State, it probably means that you built your State on my land" - Musa Anter, Kurdish writer, assassinated by the Turkish secret services in 1992

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Re: Rights Retainer in Arms License in form III for Protecti

Post by HARDIK999 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:26 pm

thanks for all the information ..

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