4th firearm (22lr) on a licence....

[saahil]

three for all, four for NRAI members.

[sunilssn]

Hi,
It is there in the Arms act and if u cant find tell me

[Anand]

Gentlemen,
GHMC Elections had been announced and as usual Arms Licensees have been asked to deposit their firearms in Hyderabad and the usual threat of confiscation of not complying.
Anyway, I wanted to talk to the DCP regarding getting an exemption as a NRAI member(since the order for deposit being cited is by Subsection (1) of Sec 21.) and decided to also talk to him about the 4th (.22 Rifle) weapon for Rifle association members.

Guess what? He actually seemed to know of the law! He said that this will be done only by the Commisioners Office, and when I asked him if they would do it routinely the DCP said " you go ahead and apply, it will be examined" .
The point that I am trying to make is that he did'nt cut me short or try to intimidate or do any of the other things but heard me fully and put his initials and dated the application letter and I was given a copy!
He asked me to come see him again later so that we could "talk". At one point I had to let him know my "family background" as he asked me what I do, when I told him, he said that some one had "mentioned" me.
I will have to go see him after the Elections and "talk" to him!

So, here is hoping & praying for the grant of a 4th firearm!
Anand
PS: By the way the exemption for the deposit is to be collected on Monday(02 Nov,2009)

[HydNawab]

Good for you Anand. All the best!

Ashar

[Anand]

Hello again members,
An update to the above, my exemption to deposit firearms has been granted, but I could not collect it today, will do it tomorrow. This evening an ASI came home to do a "verification" on my application forwarded by the DCP's office . I am surprised at the speed!

He seemed to know of the 4th firearm rule as well ! But most of our conversation hovered around the Election firearm deposit scene and after being convinced of my "fitness level" he wanted one address proof and a passport photograph which I provided. He reminded me about the deposit receipt for my dad's weapons and a copy of my exemption which I promised to submit tomorrow.

Anand

Update from 03-11-2009: Checked with the Arms clerk at DCP's office and he said as soon as the verification comes back to him he would send it on its way to the Commissioner's office. He said normally this takes about a month to be approved (or rejected , but since they don't approve any applications during elections I would have to wait until after the results are announced.
Keeping my fingers crossed!
Anand

Update from 04-11-2009: the verification has to be signed by the Inspector of the concerned Police Station and is ready for his signature this evening, it looked very positive, I looked over it as I went to submit a copy of my exemption from deposit. It will be sent over to the DCP "soon". I was told to check with the DCP's office after the election until which time the Arms Clerk said he will hold the file before sending it to the Commisioner's Office.
Anand

[colthead]

hello Members ,
just wanted to know , does the 4th weapon have to be a .22lr , in that order , as i have 3 weapons , a shot gun , a .45 pistol and a .22 rifle , can i apply for a 4th weapon of a different caliber as technically i have 1 .22lr rifle already and i am a life member of NRAI , MRA & SARVARKAR CLUB
please give your thoughts on this as i plan to put in my papers for a 4th weapon as long as i have the right to own the fourth weapon

cheers

colthead

[nm]

Hey Anand,

Any development on your 4th firearm license ?

NM

[Anand]

Sorry nm, nothing to update, the application has been pending with the arms clerk. The DCP changed right at the time that it had to be sent to the CoP's office! I have not been "following it up" since then , if you know what i mean . I am just waiting to see where this leads as I had heard that the present DCP was totally anti. Now my license is going to come up for renewal in December and I want to take it to the Home Secretary directly for both the renewal as well as the addition of .22, and also in order to be able keep my current AIV alidity and atleast keep the current ammo quota if I cant have it enhanced.
Regards,
Anand

[nm]

All the Best!!


NM

[colthead]

hello Members ,
could some learned member give me his genunine advice to my earlier queston that i just wanted to know , does the 4th weapon have to be a .22lr , in that order , as i have 3 weapons , a shot gun , a .45 pistol and a .22 rifle , can i apply for a 4th weapon of a different caliber as technically i have 1 .22lr rifle already and i am a life member of NRAI , MRA & SARVARKAR CLUB
please give your thoughts on this as i plan to put in my papers for a 4th weapon as long as i have the right to own the fourth weapon

cheers

colthead

[sudhaiob]

A person who is a member of a recognized club can own 4 weapons of which one at least has to be a.22 rifle. You may own the rest in any combination. For example it can be 4 .22's or 3 revolvers and 1 .22 and so on
Hope this answers your query.
Regs
Sudhaiob

[neeraj]

It is totally a wrong interpretation of the Arms Act, 1959 that 4th weapon is allowed to members of NRAI or for that matter any of the rifle clubs and associations. Some Licenisng Authorities on the basis of this wrong interpretation of Section 3(3) have issued 4th weapon to licencees, which require to be called back. Only Sports Persons of the five categories in the Notification No. SO 667(E) dt 12.9.1985 are exempted u/s 41 to have more than 3 weapons depending on their category, which include Arujna Awardees; International Medalists; International Target Shooters; Renowned Shooters and Junior Target Shooters.

For any technical and legal queries or clarifications on the Arms Act, 1959 and Arms Rules, 1962, members are welcome to seek the legal opinion on the forum or personally on email [email protected]

Neeraj Sharma
Advisor - Punjab Police
Chandigarh

[goodboy_mentor]

Some Licenisng Authorities on the basis of this wrong interpretation of Section 3(3) have issued 4th weapon to licencees, which require to be called back. Only Sports Persons of the five categories in the Notification No. SO 667(E) dt 12.9.1985 are exempted u/s 41 to have more than 3 weapons depending on their category

Section 3(3) of Arms Act 1959 says the following:

(3) Nothing contained in sub-section (2) shall apply to any dealer in firearms or to any member of a rifle club or rifle association licensed or recognised by the Central Government using a point 22 bore rifle or an air rifle for target practice.

It is very clear from plain reading of Section 3(3) of Arms Act 1959 that nothing contained in Section3(2) of Arms Act 1959 will apply to dealers of firearms and members of government recognized rifle club using .22 rifle. In other words it is their right under Section 3(3) of Arms Act 1959.

Now let us read what Section 41 of Arms Act 1959 says. It says:

41. Power to exempt.- Where the Central Government is of the opinion that it is necessary or expedient in the public interest so to do, it may, by notification in the Official Gazette and subject to such conditions, if any, as it may specify in the notification,--
(a) 2*[exempt any person or class of persons (either generally or in relation to such description of arms and ammunition as may be specified in the notification)], or exclude any description of arms or ammunition, or withdraw any part of India, from the operation of all or any of the provisions of this Act; and
(b) as often as may be, cancel any such notification and again subject, by a like notification, the person or class of persons or the description of arms and ammunition or the part of India to the operation of such provisions.

It is very clear from plain reading of Section 41 of the Arms Act 1959 that Parliament has delegated its legislative powers to government to exempt from provisions of Arms Act 1959. Example is the Notification exempting Coorgs from Sections 3 and 4 of Arms Act 1959. The Notification can be read here http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... =30#p83149

Section 41 is not delegating the power to restrict further the rights under provisions of Arms Act 1959. If you could upload the Notification No. SO 667(E) date 12.9.1985 issued under Section 41 that is trying to restrict further the rights of rifle club members under Section 3(3) of Arms Act 1959?

For any technical and legal queries or clarifications on the Arms Act, 1959 and Arms Rules, 1962, members are welcome to seek the legal opinion on the forum or personally on email

Thank you.
1. If you could share all the notifications issued under Arms Act 1959 that are in force that have not been already shared in this thread http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 7&start=45
2. If you could share all the notifications issued under Arms Act 1959 that are not in force now.
3. If you have copies of the Parliamentary bills with their objects and reasons that made amendments to Arms Act 1959.

[neeraj]

Endorsement of 4th Weapon for Sport Shooter on Licence in Form III

Certain licencees who are members of National Rifle Association or other Shooting Clubs have been given 4th weapon on their licences. The relevant clause has been mis-interpreted by them and the licensing authorities. The relevant Section 3 of the Arms Act, 1959 is extracted for comments:

CHAPTER II

ACQUISITION, POSSESSION, MANUFACTURE, SALE, IMPORT, EXPORT AND TRANSPORT OF ARMS AND AMMUNITION

3. Licence for acquisition and possession of firearms and ammunition – 1[(1)] No person shall acquire, have in his possession, or carry any firearm or ammunition unless he holds in this behalf a licence issued in accordance with the provision of this Act and the rules made there-under:

Provided that a person may, without himself holding a licence, carry any firearms or ammunition in the presence, or under the written authority, of the holder of the licence for repair or for renewal of the licence or for use by such holder.

2[(2)]Notwithstanding anything contained in sub-section (1), no person, other than a person referred to in sub-section (3), shall acquire, have in his possession or carry, at any time, more than three firearms:

Provided that a person who has in his possession more firearms than three at the commencement of the Arms (Amendment) Act, 1983, may retain with him any three of such firearms and shall deposit, within ninety days from such commencement*, the remaining firearms with the officer-in-charge of the
_____________________________________________________________________
1. Section 3 re-numbered as sub-section (1) thereof by Act 25 of 1983, s. 3, w.e.f. 22.6.1983
2. Ins. by Act 25 of 1983, s. 3, w.e.f. 22.6.1983
* 22.6.1983
nearest police station or, subject to the conditions prescribed for the purposes of sub-section (1) of section 21, with a licensed dealer or, where such person is a member of the armed forces of the Union, in a unit armoury referred to in that sub-section.

(3) Nothing contained in sub-section (2) shall apply to any dealer in firearms or to any member of the rifle club or rifle association licensed or recognized by the Central Government using a point 22 bore rifle or an air rifle for target practice.
(4) The provisions of sub-sections (2) to (6) (both inclusive) of section 21 shall apply in relation to any deposit of firearms under the proviso to sub-section (2) as they apply in relation to the deposit of any arm or ammunition under sub-section (1) of that section.]

Comments
1. The language of sub-section (3) has provided an exemption from the applicability of sub-section (2) to any member of the rifle club or rifle association licensed or recognized by the Central Government using a point 22 bore rifle or an air rifle for target practice. In other words, the right to use the weapon for target practice has been provided to such members, unlike in the case of a dealer who has not been subjected to any restriction and is bound by his trade licence.

2. This exemption for the target practice is available even to those shooters who do not hold any licence in Form III or do not possess any weapon(s) at all. They are exempted from holding a licence for such target practice and can use the said .22 bore rifle or an air rifle for target practice. Rule 15 of the Arms Rules has to be read to clearly understand this exemption provided under the Act. The licence granted to the Club or Association covers the legal requirement for such weapons.

Rule 15
Licences for target practice – Where a licence in Form VI has been granted in the name of any military mess, club or association, it shall be lawful for any member of such mess, club or association to use the firearms or ammunition covered by such licence for the purpose of the mess, club or association in accordance with the conditions of the licence.
3. The exemption from the applicability of Section 3 has to be explicitly provided under Section 41 by the Central Government. Exemption to Sports Persons [Notification No. SO 667(E) dated 12.9.1985] for five categories has been provided to include:

a) Arjuna Awardees;
b) International Target Shooters;
c) International Medalists;
d) Renowned Shooters and
e) Junior Target Shooters

Wherein, they are entitled to have exemption for additional weapons in addition to the three weapons which they are entitled as normal citizens.

4. Attention to substantiate the correct interpretation is also provided in the Notification No. SO 568(E) dated 12.5.2004, wherein in para 1(b) states that
"The total number of weapons exempted shall not exceed four in respect of the event/category in which the shooter has attained renowned status in addition to the number of weapons he is entitled to possess as a normal citizen as per provisions of the Arms Act, 1959, subject to overall ceiling of ten weapons"

The normal citizen is entitled to possess maximum 3 weapons as per Section 3(2).

[goodboy_mentor]

In other words, the right to use the weapon for target practice has been provided to such members, unlike in the case of a dealer who has not been subjected to any restriction and is bound by his trade licence.

I disagree with this faulty and wild interpretation of Section 3(3) of Arms Act 1959. In order to correctly interpret the provisions of Arms Act 1959, one needs to read its Objects and Reasons along with the fact that arms are Fundamental Right under Articles 19 and 21 of the Constitution. Hence the interpretation has to be done that is beneficial and harmonious without hurting the Constitution. Moreover Section 3(2) appears unreasonable and unconstitutional on plenty of grounds.

Anyways there is no need to go into Rule 15 and attempt to connect the unconnectable with Section 3(2). Section 3(2) is clearly talking about limit on possession or carrying more than three firearms. It is not talking about target practice. And Section 3(3) is clearly talking about who are exempt from the limit in Section 3(2). The language of Sub Sections 2 and 3 of Arms Act 1959 is very clear, and arms dealers and members of rifle club are separated by conjunction "or". There is no room for wild imaginations that with use of conjunction "or", it provides total exemption from Section 3(2) to arms dealers on one hand and on other hand, only allowing imaginary "right for target practice"(act of target practice is neither regulated nor a crime under Arms Act 1959) to members of rifle clubs. The use of conjunction "or" is used to join two conditions. If any one of the conditions separated by "or" is fulfilled, it satisfies the provision of law. Sub Section 3 is expanded below for understanding:

(3) Nothing contained in sub-section (2) shall apply

to any dealer in firearms

OR

to any member of the rifle club or rifle association licensed or recognized by the Central Government using a point 22 bore rifle or an air rifle for target practice.

It is very clear from above that in order to be exempt from sub section 2, one has to be a firearms dealer OR member of rifle club that uses .22 bore rifle or air gun and is licensed or recognized by central government.

Similar use of "or" in Section 45(c) of Arms Act 1959 is also discussed here http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 56#p149914

Rule 15 is irrelevant for this matter since a rifle club may or may not have any arms license on any form including Form VI, but its members having valid license on any Form can go there and do target practice. It needs to be noted that the act of "target practice" with or without license is not a crime under law.