ARMS AMENDMENT RULES 2012

[prashantsingh]

Oh NO.
Another scam in the making.
Spend Crores of Rupees on the Data Base.
The net result.....as predicted.
Zero.

[xl_target]

rabepobemababe,
A lot of what you have said is not what citizens of a free country should have to undergo. What you are advocating is something similar to what was prevalent in the old Soviet Union. That is not something most people who live in a free society are interested in. Even the Russians don't want to go back there again. GBM covered most of the rather naive assumption in your post so I won't go there but one part there is totally incorrect.

Remember, even in the U.S. where you can buy a firearm over the counter, you need to provide your Social Security Number and other details, which are cross-checked with the online database by the seller before selling you the gun. They are going to do something similar with your automobile in India once the HSNP system for the automobiles (which is as per the dictum of Hon'ble Supreme Court) is in place

Incorrect! You can provide your social security number on the Form 4473 if you want to. You are only in the FBI database if you have committed a crime. If you have not committed a crime, you're not on the database and can purchase the firearm. You can provide your social security number if you want and it will help identify you in case someone else has the same name as you. It is totally voluntary.

[neeraj]

UN Treaty on Small Arms & Light Weapons (SALW) to which India is one of the signatories has called for Stock Pile Management and Internatonal Tracing Instruments (ITI) (including laser itching). How the objectives can be met without having the database or registry for any country. The exponential growth of valid licence holders over the last 60 years necessitate such efforts at state and central levels. The perspective of looking at any issue has to be from all the angles that of the regulators, licencees, gun dealers, manufacturers. Crime and Criminal Data under CCTNS project is also a move in this direction.Of course the security of data highlighted by honourable members of this forum must have been considered by the regulators before deciding. Opening up the import sector, rationalisation of measures for sports persons etc. are some other core issues which require immediate address at the highest level.

[Skyman]

Whats laser itch? Also, are you aware of the scores of people being denied licenses on flimsy grounds? How is there any exponential growth? In fact there was a thread a while ago which said the numbers are decreasing.

[winnie_the_pooh]

UN Treaty on Small Arms & Light Weapons (SALW) to which India is one of the signatories has called for Stock Pile Management and Internatonal Tracing Instruments (ITI)

India has,as yet not signed the treaty....I am sure you wish India had

[rabepobemababe]

@goodboy_mentor,

1. Databases such as UID aid Governments to detect illegal immigrants. They are a tool. Tools are different from choices. Whether the Government efficaciously uses the tool or otherwise, is upto them. For example, Government of India for long ignored the illegal immigration from Bangladesh. Then in the 1980s, it suddenly woke up, and decided to erect a border fence on the Bangladesh border and to intensify the BSF patrolling, Secondly, consolidation of data is the pre-requisite of any public policy management, i.e., making policies and managing those policies. If there is no consolidation of data, then countries would not be able to prepare their national budgets, decide upon their Exim Policies, and design their poverty alleviation programmes. Every policy then, would have to be adhoc, much like the banana republics that you mentioned. Much of what you have said against the UID, including the examples from other countries (which were cited in galore by both pro-UID and anti-UID organizations), has already been agitated upon before the apex court in India, and did not hold water.

2. Judiciary in India has its own problems. But that does not make the judges sitting in Hon'ble Supreme Court of India an incompetent lot. There is a lot of difference in the judiciaries of India and our (not so friendly) neighbour. That neighbouring country has a history of frequently doing away with the institutions of a democracy, and / or transgressing their boundaries, judiciary being one of them. In contrast, India has a judiciary, which, with all its follies, could deliver several strong judgements on matters of public interest. Regarding CIA & FBI having access to the servers of NADRA, hackers have had access to even CIA and FBI servers, and Wikileaks is all about the intelligence data stolen from high-security servers in the U.S. These things do happen, and the damage is later attempted to be contained. But that does not mean that countries should not have databases at all. With all the world powers snooping over us, we successfully tested our nuclear weapons without any one ever getting a hint of what was happening. We did the same with our missiles. I have a decent idea of how our intelligence agencies work. There is information that is voluntarily offerred to collaborating agencies from overseas for a favour in return, and then there is information that is never revealed. The setup is certainly not that of a banana republic. Coming to Mr. Nandan Nilekani, he is holding the rank equivalent to that of a Cabinet Minister in Central Government, and is offerred the facilities and salary commensurate with that status. He is not doing philanthropy, and going by his past record, he delivers. “Nandan Nilekani & Co.” that you have made a mention of, includes Mr. Nandan Nilekani.

3. By now, I think mankind has understood enough that taking data into digital domain, and storing it in a centralized fashion, reduces the paperwork and manpower required to process and use that data, and that it speeds up communication and decision making. There cannot be a second argument about it. Oracle and SQL aren't there for nothing. Canada does not have the population of India, nor its complexity and diversity, and so might have thought it unnecessary to maintain a gun-registry. Indian circumstances are different. While we draw from the wisdom of others, we also apply the same to our circumstances.

4. Please note that Supreme Court is eminently vested with the jurisdiction of reviewing and revising its own judgments, as well as those of the lower courts. Therefore, it does not commit “contempt” when it reverses, or reviews, or even criticizes its own decisions. India follows the adverserial system of arguments in judiciary, wherein the judgements are delivered according to the arguments rendered before the court, and there is no jury. Therefore, judgments do get reversed in the apex court, and that is not a self-contempt. As rightly put by Justice Markandeya Katju himself, Supreme Court of India is not infallible, but that is not a ground not to follow the law laid down by it. What Supreme Court of India says is the law, period (till the same court reverses or revises it). I agree that reasonable criticism of courts is permissible for the citizens of a country. But to call our Supreme Court as “Supreme Court in a banana republic” is certainly not reasonable. It again depends on what the court considers reasonable, and how much criticism a judge can take. Lord Denning was once called an “old fool” by a journalist. When it came to the notice of Lord Denning, he dismissed it, and said, “I am old. He thinks I am a fool. Why bother?” Every judge may not have the grace of Lord Denning, and in normal course, such statements are considered a serious contempt of court. I do read quite a bit of Justice Markandeya Katju who is known for his different and radical approach to jurisprudence. And that's exactly the beauty of our judiciary. A Liberhans, a Markandeya Katju, an Altumus Kabir, can take a fresh and radical approach to jurisprudence, and seek reform. That is perfectly allowed under our system. Thanks for the essay.

5. In this era where everything is digital, it is amazing to see that you are against digitization of data. It is all but natural that the gun-registers locally maintained in paper form in police-stations go digital and centralized. After all, it is the Central Government that passes laws related to guns in India, and so it needs centralized information to manage such laws. I live within the jurisdiction of Cyberabad Metropolitan Police, and have seen their cyber-crimes wing. People there are knowledgeble and well-versed with the nittty-gritty of digitization. I am sure they will come out with measures to minimize the risk of hacking the fire-arm data from their centralized servers. Law is an evolving process, and data laws too will evolve. There is already a wing in Government that examines the requirements on this front, and gives inputs to our policy-makers. Our law schools (NALSAR, Hyderabad, NLSI, Bangalore) too these days have wings that look into cyber laws. Secondly, stopping crime, and alleviating the root-causes of crime are two different things. Just as poverty does not automatically justify killing for money, opting for fake-licences cannot be justified because getting a frearm licence is difficult in this country.

6. Census is the collection and consolidation of data. In case you are not aware, officers hand-picked for Aadhar were chosen on the basis of their prior experience in handling such data. The DDG heading the Hyderabad based UID office is an IITian who has put in over 30 years of service in the IAS in Maharastra Cadre, having served previously as IT Secretary of Maharashtra with a brilliant track record. His subordinates are all picked up from various premier services, and each of them is a go-getter. Staff are picked up from private secor, and Aadhar has a tie-up with the best of the software companies in India (which again rank among the best in the world). These people certainly understand the security aspects of centralized data, and are eminently capable of addressing them.

7. The first step in crime-investigation involves investigating the weapon used to commit the crime. It will establish the motive of the criminal. Remember, to successfully convict a criminal under Indian law, "actus reus” and “mens rea”, or “guilty mind in guity body,” are to be necessarily established. In Jessica Lal type of scenario where the firearm used to commit the crime is readily recovered from the culprit, the next step would be to prepare enough forensic ballistic evidence to produce in the court. If it is an illegal fire-arm, then that establishes the guilty mind, and the guilty body (the criminal) has to be searched out. In case the weapon is not found, but the suspected criminal is found, the next step in investigation would be to search for the weapon. Many a time, firearms used for committing a crime are found in places such as hollow tree-trunks and village-wells. Digital data will help in establishing the credentials, or the lack of them, in respect of a firearm used in committing a crime. If you first know what is legal, then only you can arrive at what is illegal. I think I made it very clear.

8. I think I already answered it in (5) above.

9. Licencing authorities do follow the due process of law (barring few deviant examples) even in case of their colleagues (personal experience). But that due process of law, owing to the paperwork involved, is so slow as on date, that Government thought it wise to hasten it up by having a centralized digital database. It is indeed a problem for the licencing authority to verify the antecedents of an applicant requesting for a gun-licence. Say, a Marwari businessman in Dibrugarh applies for a gun-licence to the Deputy Commissioner, Dibrugarh, and claims that he holds no other gun-licence and has no criminal record. The Deputy Commissioner, Dibrugarh has to choose between writing to the Collector in Rajasthan (or the one at any other place where the businessman lived earlier) to verify the claim of the businessman, or to allow a licence to him straight away. If he takes the first option, it is extremely time consuming, and the businessman would be frustrated by the process (and vent his anger on this forum). If the Deputy Commissioner takes the second option, and if a crime gets committed with that weapon later, he would stand the personal risk of being pulled up by his superiors (this happened in Andhra where a factionist was granted a gun-licence within a week of applying by an officer, and later used that weapon to kill another factionist. The officer continues to be in thick soup even now). A centralized digital database to which the Deputy Commissioner, Dibrugarh could have access, would have made the decision-making very fast.

10. What is explicitly stated in Constitution of India is what is apparent. Supreme Court of India alone has the Original Jurisdiction to interpret the Constitution of India, and no one else is empowered. Even His Excellency, the President of India, has to consult the Supreme Court if he has any doubts on the meaning and scope of any Article in the Constitution of India. And Supreme Court of India has so far not said that right to bear firearms is a manifestation of one of the Fundamental Rights enshrined in the Constitution. If and when it says so, then only you can claim that right to bear firearms is your Fundamental Right. Otherwise it remains as your argument only. Secondly, Constitution of India does not lay down what is an offence and what is not. Indian Penal Code does. Please go through your law books once again. If you still think right to bear firearms is your Fundamental Right, why don't you take it to the court and see?

@xl_target,

Incorrect! You can provide your social security number on the Form 4473 if you want to. You are only in the FBI database if you have committed a crime. If you have not committed a crime, you're not on the database and can purchase the firearm. You can provide your social security number if you want and it will help identify you in case someone else has the same name as you. It is totally voluntary.

So there is a centralized (F.B.I. is Federal, right?) digital database, and you can purchase a firearm if you are not in the database. You say that Social Security Number (which is again based on a centralized digital database) is the additional, voluntary identification which you may choose to produce in case of conflicting identity (if the other fellow turns out to be on F.B.I. database, and as a result the gun-seller refuses to sell the gun to you). So what is wrong with a centralized digital database? Does a centralized digital database make the U.S. very similar to the old Soviet Union?

[Skyman]

Wikileaks data was not stolen by some vested interests.A US Soldier copied the data onto a flash drive and walked out.That shows if the US govt which is paranoid about security and has many checks in place, can be brought to it's knees by a Private, God help the disorganized Indian Govt.

Canada did not think it was unnecessary to have a gun registry.They did have one for 17 YEARS and shut it down because it served NO purpose whatsoever.If a country with a homogeneous population,speaking the same language etc found no use, how much more difficult for us to a) Implement b) Get it to work.

India is a Banana republic.If you think otherwise, you are not acquainted with the country.

No one is against digitization.We are against a gun registry that serves NO purpose.

No one is justifying fake licenses.We as a forum are against them.People pay touts for driving licenses because the official procedure is too damn complicated.And time consuming.Same logic.Why should getting a firearm license be a difficult thing to do if it is our FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT?

7. The first step in crime-investigation is to investigate the weapon used to commit the crime. It will establish the motive of the criminal.


This is absolute BS.Whether a knife is used to kill or a gun or bare hands, the MOTIVE WAS THE SAME.The tools vary.The first step is to take in the crime scene and look for clues.What makes you think a weapon will conveniently left at the crime scene as a welcome present for the cops?

If it is an illegal fire-arm, then that establishes the guilty mind

Murder regardless of licensed or unlicensed weapon is murder.Only people with illegal firearms are guilty?

Licencing authorities do follow the due process of law (barring few deviant examples)

Few examples? Wake up!!! And why do you want to mention " Marwari "? Do you not know you cannot name groups like that on this forum? Let the bureaucracy streamline the process.What is the relation between that and gun registry?

If you still think right to bear arms is your Fundamental Right, why don't you take it to the court and see?

Is right to bear arms an exclusive privilege granted by the Govt? Since when? Please tell me, who are eligible ?

[rabepobemababe]

@Skyman,

I already mentioned about the importance of "actus reus" and "mens rea" in convicting a criminal. That's the way judiciary sees it. If you want more insights, you may read case laws. Weapons, if found on the crime scene, are an important evidence to establish the circumstances of the crime. A knife used to chop vegetables which has been used by a gentleman to kill his wife, may be used as a corroborative evidence to establish that the crime was not pre-meditated (assuming that the other evidences too point out to it). An illegal firearm buried in the backyard of a murder suspect, which was used in committing the murder, will help in establishing that the murder was pre-meditated (if other evidences too point out to it). The punishment varies in both the cases. Court will not see any murder as "just a murder". There are several degrees to a murder. Navjoth Singh Sidhu killed a man with a cricket bat, but was not awarded a lifer, right?

I used the word "Marwari" for denoting a person having nativity (as in Form-III-A) in the geographic region of Marwar, to illustrate my point as to how distances complicate things in relation to obtaining a firearm licence, and how a centralized digital database on gun licences can aid in early decision making. The example is very clear, and needs no further elaboration. From the tone and tenor of my language and the example itself, my intentions are very clear. The example I quoted was a real-life example that I am familiar with. I did not insinuate or comment about any community, nor did I use a single unparliamentary word anywhere in any of my posts. Do you mean to say that somebody can call Supreme Court of India as "Supreme Court in a banana republic" on this forum and that's right, and me citing a real-world example to illustrate my point is wrong?

Not withstanding that I have frustrations with the system like everybody else, I am a proud Indian, and I do not think India is a banana republic. I am very well acquainted with my country. Just as you are entitled to your opinions, I am entitled to mine.

A firearm licence in India, as on date, is not a "right" of any kind. It is the discretion of Government whether to grant it to one or not, and in my opinion it will always remain that way.

I am aware of the story as to how the Wikileaks data came out. It was a theft of the digital data by a soldier. Whether the solider had vested interests or not, neither you know, nor I know.

[mundaire]

So there is a centralized (F.B.I. is Federal, right?) digital database, and you can purchase a firearm if you are not in the database. You say that Social Security Number (which is again based on a centralized digital database) is the additional, voluntary identification which you may choose to produce in case of conflicting identity (and if the other fellow turns out to be on F.B.I. database, and as a result the gun-seller refuses to sell the gun to you). So what is wrong with a centralized digital database? Does a centralized digital database make the U.S. very similar to the old Soviet Union?

The difference that you are clearly unable/ unwilling to grasp is that the database in question is of CRIMINALS and NOT of LAW ABIDING CITIZENS who DO NOT deserve to be treated like CRIMINALS and have their personal information put in some database which can be accessed (& misused) by all and sundry anywhere in the country!

As to being against digitization, nope I am not some Luddite howling against the march of progress. I am however a very concerned citizen who considers it important that privacy issues are sorted out before any such database is put in place, the total initial cost & recurring costs be made clear up front as well as what benefit the common man can expect in return (if reduction in crime is one, then it should be proven beyond doubt how this database would achieve that).

The way these things usually progress, first they'll set up the database, then order all arms licensees to have their biometric identifiers scanned in as well.... As if arms licensees are criminals and thus must all be fingerprinted etc. like thugs!!

If you don't think it is likely that there will be rampant infringement of privacy, then just google for information on how often the PRIVATE financial details of PAN Card holders gets passed on to people who have no business accessing that information.

If even the smallest of liberties enjoyed by our citizens are to be curtailed in any way, it is incumbent on those who seek to limit these liberties to prove beyond all doubt what benefit (if any) citizens may expect in return. Don't forget the State machinery exists to serve the citizens and not vice versa (though you'd be forgiven for thinking that it is the other way around upon entering any Govt. office in India ). You sound like you work for the Govt. in some capacity, so you'll know exactly what I mean by the above.

In case you are wondering, I am against the current system of licensing as well... besides everything else - it is unjust, corrupt and has failed to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals (it's purported raison d'être).

If something is OBVIOUSLY NOT working, then it's time to try something new, right?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Skyman]

Weapons are important evidence, but do not point to motive.I never said weapons are not important in an investigation.What makes you think a weapon found hidden is some ones backyard means it was pre-meditated? It could have been self defense and he could have hidden it out of fear.Have you even understood what i said?
There are degrees of murder.IS bludgeoning some one with a bat not as worse as using a knife or a gun? Or a bulldozer even.Murder is murder.Regardless of your tone and intent, it is against the forum rules to take community names.

There are many instances to prove India is a banana republic run by indecisive people.Again, thats the way i see it.If you read newspapers, eminent people also say pretty much the same thing.

Govt has some criteria-Should not be mentally unstable etc.Other than that, stupid reasons like " You do not own property" " There is no threat to your life " cannot be used as " Discretion ".I have a right to a fire arm if i meet the criteria.Nothing else need be said by the govt.

The soldier stole data to show the world what really goes on, and he did us all a service.

[rabepobemababe]

@Mundaire,

The difference that you are clearly unable/ unwilling to grasp is that the database in question is of CRIMINALS and NOT of LAW ABIDING CITIZENS who DO NOT deserve to be treated like CRIMINALS and have their personal information put in some database which can be accessed (& misused) by all and sundry anywhere in the country!

How does digitization of the existing data and putting it on a centralized server amount to treating bonafide licence holders as criminals?

About the misuse part, like I said, yes, there is potential for misuse of any database, digital or otherwise. It happens with software companies, credit-card companies, banks, the Income Tax Department etc. But just as the private sector takes care of the security aspects of their databases and plugs the loop-holes if found, Government too will be able to implement the security protocols. By the way, the details of gun-licences in a given area, even in its paper format, can be obtained by a concerned citizen (just like you) who is a member of any anti-gun lobby, by sending a Rs.10/- R.T.I. application to the Public Information Officer concerned, unless the P.I.O. is too cautious to reject it under Section 8 of the R.T.I. Act (usually they do not reject the request for information now a days).

I appreciate your concern about Government curtailing the rights of its citizens. But I am of the opinion that digitized centralized licence data is unlikely to curtail any rights of the citizens. It may actually help the rule-bound ones to get quicker firearm licences.

@Skyman,

Read my post in its entirity. Police investigating a crime, work backwards. Say, a murder is committed, a suspect exists, and a country-made pistol is found buried in his backyard. Say, thereafter the police find from their forensic lab that the weapon was recently fired. Police also find out that the suspect travelled, say, from Hyderabad to Meerut a week prior to the murder, and returned after two days. They find used train tickets to this effect. Police interrogate the suspect, and also find from his neighbours that he had an altercation with the victim over a piece of land a month ago, and that he threatened the victim that he would kill him. Say, the police get hold of the autowallah who assisted the suspect to go to a place in Meerut where illegal arms are manufactured, and get a confession from him. That establishes that the supect pre-meditated the murder, planned it, made all the arrangements (guilty mind), and then executed his plan (guilty body). In other words, "actus reus" and "mens rea" have been established. This will then become the version of the police before the Criminal Court having jurisdiction. Corroborative evidence, including the photographs of the crime scene, ballistic report, the country made firearm itself, the train tickets to Meerut and back, the statements of the neighbours and the autowallah, etc., will be produced in the court by the police. Based on the strength of evidence, the judge will first convict, and then award the punishment. So an illegal firearm buried in the backyard of the suspect is certainly an important evidence to establish the "guilty mind".

Technically, murder in any degree has the same effect, killing a human being. But that's not the way courts decide upon the gravity of the crime.

Now, Hyderabad & Meerut are cited just as examples. Don't go about reading too much into the place names.

[Skyman]

You have repeated what i said.You never answered my questions.But you don't need to.

[surajshuresh]

Oh NO.
Another scam in the making.
Spend Crores of Rupees on the Data Base.
The net result.....as predicted.
Zero.

[xl_target]

So there is a centralized (F.B.I. is Federal, right?) digital database, and you can purchase a firearm if you are not in the database. You say that Social Security Number (which is again based on a centralized digital database) is the additional, voluntary identification which you may choose to produce in case of conflicting identity (if the other fellow turns out to be on F.B.I. database, and as a result the gun-seller refuses to sell the gun to you). So what is wrong with a centralized digital database?

I was merely pointing out that the entire premise that your statement was based on was incorrect and untrue.
Also the FBI database lists actual criminals and not law abiding citizens. You have to actually break the law to get on the database.

Does a centralized digital database make the U.S. very similar to the old Soviet Union?

There are many here who will tell you that it is headed in that direction.

I appreciate your concern about Government curtailing the rights of its citizens. But I am of the opinion that digitized centralized licence data is unlikely to curtail any rights of the citizens. It may actually help the rule-bound ones to get quicker firearm licences.

Wake up and smell the coffee?

[spin_drift]

Read my post in its entirity. Police investigating a crime, work backwards. Say, a murder is committed, a suspect exists, and a country-made pistol is found buried in his backyard. Say, thereafter the police find from their forensic lab that the weapon was recently fired. Police also find out that the suspect travelled, say, from Hyderabad to Meerut a week prior to the murder, and returned after two days. They find used train tickets to this effect. Police interrogate the suspect, and also find from his neighbours that he had an altercation with the victim over a piece of land a month ago, and that he threatened the victim that he would kill him. Say, the police get hold of the autowallah who assisted the suspect to go to a place in Meerut where illegal arms are manufactured, and get a confession from him. That establishes that the supect pre-meditated the murder, planned it, made all the arrangements (guilty mind), and then executed his plan (guilty body). In other words, "actus reus" and "mens rea" have been established. This will then become the version of the police before the Criminal Court having jurisdiction. Corroborative evidence, including the photographs of the crime scene, ballistic report, the country made firearm itself, the train tickets to Meerut and back, the statements of the neighbours and the autowallah, etc., will be produced in the court by the police. Based on the strength of evidence, the judge will first convict, and then award the punishment. So an illegal firearm buried in the backyard of the suspect is certainly an important evidence to establish the "guilty mind".

I understand that this is an example...
If i may be bold enough to inquire, Sir, how will a centralized database help in such a scenario.