Indians For Guns

Dear all,
All the local made air rifles may look attractive in terms of colour,getup,rifling,sights and others.Yet you can not have any idea about the power plant.Recently it is seen that some of the manufacturers are using cheap pipes with seam into it,just to reduce on cost , resulting in fast decay of the piston washer thus loosing adequate power.These pipes will take long to get smoothen up on its own.

Basu

Can you name some of the manufacturers/dealers we could avoid them.

Thats not good news at all.....It would really help to know the makes, so they can be avoided altogether.

M.

Basu wrote:Dear all,
All the local made air rifles may look attractive in terms of colour,getup,rifling,sights and others.Yet you can not have any idea about the power plant.Recently it is seen that some of the manufacturers are using cheap pipes with seam into it,just to reduce on cost , resulting in fast decay of the piston washer thus loosing adequate power.These pipes will take long to get smoothen up on its own.

Basu

Well, if you don't like seam, then got to avoid all including your fav. IHP No guns that are made in India without seam and moreover seam doesn't create much problem as long as leather seals are used.

tirths wrote:Well, if you don't like seam, then got to avoid all including your fav. IHP No guns that are made in India without seam and moreover seam doesn't create much problem as long as leather seals are used.

It means synthetic seals should be completely avoided. They are waste of money & effort in Indian guns.

karizman wrote:

tirths wrote: It means synthetic seals should be completely avoided. They are waste of money & effort in Indian guns.

You are right to some extent. And you already know some synthetic seal capable of eliminating leakages that happens due to seam. And there are plenty of happy former here who are using that.

> Agree with Basu & Tirths.
> Seamless tubes are the best, but expensive as compared to welded tubes. Manufacturers use welded tubes to save cost which is a very shortsighted policy.
> Welded tubes are OK provided they are x-rayed to detect consistency of the weld, as otherwise there will be leakage resulting in loss of power. I don't think Indian manufacturers take the trouble of x-raying the welds.
> Even after welding & x-raying the excess weld material has to be smoothened off by reaming & polishing.
> Testing should be done by injecting water under high presuure - to detect leakage or through light emission. I am not too sure these tests are done.
> If sythetic seals are to be used, then the insides of the tube has to be polished with 400 grade emery paper and this requires some skill!
> In the final analysis - do we have a choice?
Cheers
Brihacharan

-- Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:11 pm --

> Further to my earlier post, I have this question to the Gurus of this forum.
> After purchasing an Indian made air rifle, can we buy and provide our local gunsmith with a seamless tube** (as per specs, OD - ID etc) purchased from the market, so that he can machine it to the existing tube specs and fit it?
> Is this possible & do our gunsmiths have the expertise & skill to do it?
> If so, it should be worth our while.
> Looking for response.
Cheers
Brihacharan
PS** - A stainless steel seamless tube would be better that the current mild steel tubes used.

tirths wrote:Well, if you don't like seam, then got to avoid all including your fav. IHP No guns that are made in India without seam and moreover seam doesn't create much problem as long as leather seals are used.

so which air-rifle doesn't problem. mean have leather seal ? suggest the name of them....

@Brihacharan - sure you can get something fabricated, all you need is a correctly sized stainless steel rod (check your the whole trade market in your city for suppliers) AND a good machinist with a precision lathe... I don't see why it cannot be done, it is hardly rocket science...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

i know one such brand-hero their airguns and pistols are a piece of crap. My brother bought one of the hero 911 gun and it was not at all consistent witht the shots, the pressure used to escape from the breakbarrel. The gun was soo hard to load, it almost jammed. He still has it but just uses as a show piece because they gun looked far more sturdy and beautiful than any air rifle available in the Indian market. It was priced around Rs3000, I think one can still find these rifles in some shops in Ludhiana and Ambala

Regards
King234

tirths wrote:

karizman wrote:

tirths wrote: It means synthetic seals should be completely avoided. They are waste of money & effort in Indian guns.

You are right to some extent. And you already know some synthetic seal capable of eliminating leakages that happens due to seam. And there are plenty of happy former here who are using that.

Can you enlighten us with your great wisdom as how some seals can eliminate leaking due to seam. Does it grind the seam? Are those seals coated with abrasive?

As per brihacharan's post all the cylinder's should be highly polished to get leakproof assembly with synthetic washers, then how come synthetic seals sold by few people achieve better sealing with all the crappy cylinders of Indian manufactured air guns.

I still think that synthetic seals alone are of no use in existing Indian guns.

Hi Karizman,

Your post:
Can you enlighten us with your great wisdom as how some seals can eliminate leaking due to seam. Does it grind the seam? Are those seals coated with abrasive?

As per brihacharan's post all the cylinder's should be highly polished to get leakproof assembly with synthetic washers, then how come synthetic seals sold by few people achieve better sealing with all the crappy cylinders of Indian manufactured air guns. I still think that synthetic seals alone are of no use in existing Indian guns.

* Seals in general cannot eliminate leakage if the seam is BAD.
* Seals are not coated with any abrasive hence cannot grind the 'Burrs' left due to improper weld.
* Most Indian (infact all) guns come with leather seals - Leather seals are not resilient, meaning they cannot adapt to deviations (microscopic) in the ID of the tube.
* Synthetic seals have a basic resilient quality - to put it simply they possess a certain amount of elasticity which is characteristic of the material of the seal - so they could either expand or converge (adapt) to changes in the ID of the tube. This minimizes or avoids leakages. This ofcourse is notional but could happen.
* Hence considering all these factors 'Synthetic Seals' score over 'Leather Seals'. Also leather is organic and as such absorbs the lubricant, whereas Synthetic Seals do not absorb the lubricant, therefore it has a certain amount of 'Dimensional Stability'
* Lastly manufacturers use Leather Seals because they are cheap - a leather may cost Rs.50 to 100 max, whereas a good Synthetic Seal costs Rs.700 +.
Cheers
Brihacharan

brihacharan wrote:Hi Karizman,

Your post:
Can you enlighten us with your great wisdom as how some seals can eliminate leaking due to seam. Does it grind the seam? Are those seals coated with abrasive?

As per brihacharan's post all the cylinder's should be highly polished to get leakproof assembly with synthetic washers, then how come synthetic seals sold by few people achieve better sealing with all the crappy cylinders of Indian manufactured air guns. I still think that synthetic seals alone are of no use in existing Indian guns.

* Seals in general cannot eliminate leakage if the seam is BAD. Correct
* Seals are not coated with any abrasive hence cannot grind the 'Burrs' left due to improper weld. I know that is not possible because then seal will
* Most Indian (infact all) guns come with leather seals - Leather seals are not resilient, meaning they cannot adapt to deviations (microscopic) in the ID of the tube.
* Synthetic seals have a basic resilient quality - to put it simply they possess a certain amount of elasticity which is characteristic of the material of the seal - so they could either expand or converge (adapt) to changes in the ID of the tube. This minimizes or avoids leakages. This ofcourse is notional but could happen.
* Hence considering all these factors 'Synthetic Seals' score over 'Leather Seals'. Also leather is organic and as such absorbs the lubricant, whereas Synthetic Seals do not absorb the lubricant, therefore it has a certain amount of 'Dimensional Stability'
* Lastly manufacturers use Leather Seals because they are cheap - a leather may cost Rs.50 to 100 max, whereas a good Synthetic Seal costs Rs.700 +.
Cheers
Brihacharan

Good explanation. Some points can be discussed further but I will like to draw your attention to main point of my post. I want to say that seals alone are of no use in seam welded cylinder. To achieve optimum result from synthetic seals cylinder also must be highly polished & all burrs should be removed. Buying over the counter tuning kits or synthetic seals should be avoided.
To manufacturer Synthetic seal cost 20/- & leather seal cost 10/- when purchased in sizable quantity. Manufacturers choose leather ones because they are more forgiving & do not require absolute burr free cylinder. They save on machining process & not on the cost of seals.

mundaire wrote:@Brihacharan - sure you can get something fabricated, all you need is a correctly sized stainless steel rod (check your the whole trade market in your city for suppliers) AND a good machinist with a precision lathe... I don't see why it cannot be done, it is hardly rocket science...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Hi Abhijeet,

> You are right - It ain't no Rocket Science!
> I've already asked my supplier for those seamless tubes (Tirths has given me the specs ID & OD & Length) & lined up a good machinist for it.
> In fact Tirths wants a couple of those tubes too!!!
> By the way - What's the progress on the "STICKERS"? Just eager to know.
Cheers
Brihacharan

-- Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:02 pm --

Basu wrote:Dear all,
All the local made air rifles may look attractive in terms of colour,getup,rifling,sights and others.Yet you can not have any idea about the power plant.Recently it is seen that some of the manufacturers are using cheap pipes with seam into it,just to reduce on cost , resulting in fast decay of the piston washer thus loosing adequate power.These pipes will take long to get smoothen up on its own.

Basu

Hi Basu,
> Need a small help from you.
> I've been chasing Olympic Sports Kolkata for 2 months for a Canon65 - They say its under production.
> My last call a couple of days ago they said its been sent to taher Arms in Mumbai where I live.
> On checking with Taher Arms they say nothing has come so far!!!!
> While speaking to Tirths he asked me to check with you - Could you find out from Olympic Sports the status / availability of Canon65? I believe they are located behind Lal Bazzar Police Station.
> Sorry for the trouble friend!
Cheers
Brihacharan

Hi Basu,
> Need a small help from you.
> I've been chasing Olympic Sports Kolkata for 2 months for a Canon65 - They say its under production.
> My last call a couple of days ago they said its been sent to taher Arms in Mumbai where I live.
> On checking with Taher Arms they say nothing has come so far!!!!
> While speaking to Tirths he asked me to check with you - Could you find out from Olympic Sports the status / availability of Canon65? I believe they are located behind Lal Bazzar Police Station.
> Sorry for the trouble friend!
Cheers
Brihacharan

mundaire wrote:@Brihacharan - sure you can get something fabricated, all you need is a correctly sized stainless steel rod (check your the whole trade market in your city for suppliers) AND a good machinist with a precision lathe... I don't see why it cannot be done, it is hardly rocket science...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Hi Abhijeet,

> You are right - It ain't no Rocket Science!
> I've already asked my supplier for those seamless tubes (Tirths has given me the specs ID & OD & Length) & lined up a good machinist for it.
> In fact Tirths wants a couple of those tubes too!!!
> By the way - What's the progress on the "STICKERS"? Just eager to know.
Cheers
Brihacharan

-- Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:02 pm --

Basu wrote:Dear all,
All the local made air rifles may look attractive in terms of colour,getup,rifling,sights and others.Yet you can not have any idea about the power plant.Recently it is seen that some of the manufacturers are using cheap pipes with seam into it,just to reduce on cost , resulting in fast decay of the piston washer thus loosing adequate power.These pipes will take long to get smoothen up on its own.

Basu

Hi Basu,
> Need a small help from you.
> I've been chasing Olympic Sports Kolkata for 2 months for a Canon65 - They say its under production.
> My last call a couple of days ago they said its been sent to taher Arms in Mumbai where I live.
> On checking with Taher Arms they say nothing has come so far!!!!
> While speaking to Tirths he asked me to check with you - Could you find out from Olympic Sports the status / availability of Canon65? I believe they are located behind Lal Bazzar Police Station.
> Sorry for the trouble friend!
Cheers
Brihacharan





dear brihacharan,
earlier also i was requested by some other member to see availablity and despatch.i remember that i personally visited the shop and spoke to mr das , yet they seems to be apathetic towards the gun manufacturing and selling it in singles in perticular. i will see what really i could do now and let you know in PM.

Basu

NB : your posts are worth reading