Indians For Guns

Hello Everybody!

I have a query to put forward to you all and especially to stalwarts like Basu, Sam47 and S Sathya the sniper!

My one and a half month's toying with my AK 550 underlever (stealing time whenever and wherever possible from tax audits and company law work) has been exciting. I have acquired a bipod stock rest from Amazon India and having easy targets between 30-40 yards in simple plinking.

My friend and associate CA. Mr Sanjay Aggarwal of Gurgaon has taken great interest at plinking with me and with my AR. So much so that he wishes to buy for himself an underlever AR like mine. He is 49 and rotund and about 5 ft 3 in in height and heavy but finds lifting and carrying my heavy AR easy. He too has seen success after 40-50 shots at 20-30 yards target.

The choice by us has zeroed on .22 mm AK 550 and the SDB Model 300 (both incidentally are available at www.kovibazaar.com for reasonable and affordable prices) and I have asked him and now ask you folks for details of a slightly higher priced AR the SDB Apache SE .22 break barrel that has got 5 star rating on the Kovibazaar portal.

So fellow ifgians, here is the time to give a helping hand.

Thanks and regards,

CA. Shyamal K Mitra
Rajarhat Kolkata

Dear Shyamal ,
I feel a little shaky when you call me as stalwart .
I am not here to contradict or discourage you about UL guns.
The fact is both the models you mentioned are tap loaders.
The issue is after a few thousand shots air tend to leak from the loading port and there is no way one can stop it.
As being front heavy , from bench rest it provides good accuracy but off hand shooting is tiring....
Among SDB stable , as per my opinion , Sport is the best field AR ever made in India for some good reason.
It weighs only 3 kgs.
It has 800 fps velocity .177
It has weight adjustable trigger.
Pricewise it is much lower than other models.
Performancewise , as a springer , it can outbeat any springer.
Recently I got their latest model called GenNex .
This AR offers tireless shooting which I love these days.
I am happy to feel that today in India , excellent ARs are prepared by Precihole and SDB.
Now a days IHP lost its position due to their apathy towards R & D.

Basu

Sir, this is is time you stay away from .22. This Saturday I went to a gun store and found out the act banning the .22s is coming very soon , within 2-3 months . The .177 is also equally good when it comes to long range shooting, have been using it myself, in fact its easier because of the flat trajectory.
You have chosen a very nice one on the SDB Apache just get it in .177. My best guess is it produces 12 fpe at muzzle, and no problem for 50 yards. IFGian Rudransh has a video on you tube showing targets being hit at 40 m with this very gun.
There is a detailed review about that gun also in this forum. You may also get any other new SDB gun you like, and my assumption is that Basuda will suggest a sport.
And please sir , I am no stalwart.

Added in 1 minute 27 seconds:
Oh, I see Basuda already has suggested the sport...

It's a PH or SDB.

I will not talk about PH because quiet honestly i've not experienced it. However, i know the birth story of Apache and would highly recommend it. SDB Artemis is another very good option. Since your friend is as you described, Basu's suggestion for a lighter gun is apt, especially considering age. Since you seem to enjoy 30 - 50 meter shooting, and with the current suspense on 22cal, the wise option is the 177 as rightly pointed out by Sam47.

BD

So my dear Basu AND my dear SAM47,

The point for avoiding the purchase of a 0.22mm bore AR is well taken and agreed mutually upon me and Sanjay. In fact Sanjay had visited M/s Kohli & Sons at Chandni Chowk and Singh Armoury at Kashmere Gate in old Delhi (both reputed gun sellers of Delhi) and called me back saying that Delhi traders are stopping to stock 0.22 pellets as well. So it will be a 0.177 mm bore AR. Period.

Now comes my second salvo to you both.

The SDB Apache SE and the SDB Sport both have a same price tag of Rs.8500.00 on http://www.kovibazaar.com. (I keep mentioning this Karnataka based reseller because of the impeccable scheduled delivery and the exemplary care and courtesy of the CEO Mr. Robert Kabral. He is a patient listener and a great guide.).

BUT the Apache SE has a 5 star rating whereas the Sport has NONE. There is also on display a sold out SDB Model 2000 selling at Rs.9500.00 which according to Robert is the best of SDB ever handled by him. and according to you Basu, GenNext is the latest SDB which is very highly rated by you but Kovibazaar does not show it as yet. Another AR from Amritsar Punjab is the Hurricane Model 15 that is also 5 star rated (Rs.11000.00+) at http://www.kovibazaar.com.

Of the three talked of above, which should we pick while considering quality and value for money?

Thanks and regards.

CA. Shyamal K Mitra
Rajarhat. Kolkata.

CA_S_Mitra wrote:So my dear Basu AND my dear SAM47,

The point for avoiding the purchase of a 0.22mm bore AR is well taken and agreed mutually upon me and Sanjay. In fact Sanjay had visited M/s Kohli & Sons at Chandni Chowk and Singh Armoury at Kashmere Gate in old Delhi (both reputed gun sellers of Delhi) and called me back saying that Delhi traders are stopping to stock 0.22 pellets as well. So it will be a 0.177 mm bore AR. Period.

Now comes my second salvo to you both.

The SDB Apache SE and the SDB Sport both have a same price tag of Rs.8500.00 on http://www.kovibazaar.com. (I keep mentioning this Karnataka based reseller because of the impeccable scheduled delivery and the exemplary care and courtesy of the CEO Mr. Robert Kabral. He is a patient listener and a great guide.).

BUT the Apache SE has a 5 star rating whereas the Sport has NONE. There is also on display a sold out SDB Model 2000 selling at Rs.9500.00 which according to Robert is the best of SDB ever handled by him. and according to you Basu, GenNext is the latest SDB which is very highly rated by you but Kovibazaar does not show it as yet. Another AR from Amritsar Punjab is the Hurricane Model 15 that is also 5 star rated (Rs.11000.00+) at http://www.kovibazaar.com.

Of the three talked of above, which should we pick while considering quality and value for money?

Thanks and regards.

CA. Shyamal K Mitra
Rajarhat. Kolkata.

Dear Sir,

First off, I would suggest you to get your gun from the original manufacturer, not some dealer/website - you will get the gun at 2000-3000 INR lesser minimum!

Next, I have shot Precihole, Apache and own AARMR Hurricane. As first choice, I would always suggest you to go with nitropiston Precihole. Its firing cycle is the smoothest and most comfortable among Indian guns IMHO.

Next, if you want a cheap gun that will eat any absolutely any Indian pellet and spit out decent accuracy out to, say 25-40yds, go for Apache. It has a smaller bore dia than both Precihole and Hurricane and finding well fitting pellets for them can become challenging at times.

If you want a gun to shoot offhand mostly, go for Precihole Spartan VX-100 or a light gun like SDB Gennex.

If you want to shoot from a bench or prone, go for AK or Hurricane - both are very accurate and bench-friendly! AK doesn't come with a scope rail and will require you to import one and fix with fevitite or araldite if you want to mount a scope.
To shoot offhand, Hurricane will ideally need some lead weights in the butt cavity to balance its 19' barrel and ultra heavy piston head sitting 10cm away from the trigger, thereby increasing its weight. If you are well built like some of us other users, then you can definitely shoot this beauty offhand. Else its muzzle-heaviness is best exploited on a bench where it spits great accuracy even out to 100yds in 10kph full cross winds...

If you want a gun to drag out in farms or fields, without having to bother about the gun's safety or performance ever, Hurricane is what I would suggest. Its very, very tough - I have been witnessing it first hand since last year. In fact I banged my rifle today itself and broke my brand new 4x20 scope, through which I had barely shot 50 pellets, but nothing happened at all to the iron sights or the stock...

As far as the pellets are concerned, you can first see which pellet your gun performs best with then get in touch with some pellet manufacturer and order a carton or two of that - 1 carton typically contains 6000 pellets. That will also ensure that you have an inexhaustible supply of pellets, shopkeepers or no shopkeeper around you - wire them the money, they will send you the pellets right at your doorstep!

Happy Hunting!
Nitroex

Dear Shyamal,
Do not be carried away by price tag of websites and rating.
There are lot of IFgian who got there gun from Kolkata.
Plethora of information about various ARs available here.
There are harsh criticism also about issues.
Nice to note that you have already infected another one with this rare hobby .

Basu

Sir, get any of the SDB springers you mentioned, the difference between them is power they produce and their weight. Buy deciding how much power you will be comfortable with and how much weight you will be comfortable with. Like Basuda always prefers the Sport over the Artemis, saying Artemis has power excess of his requirement and makes it hard for him to shoot. I on the other hand prefer the maximum permissible power under legal limit and am not bothered by the extra 250g weight. It is all a matter of personal taste. I have been shooting it in the fields,(well almost a jungle) upto a distance of 50 m, and put through it almost 10,000 pellets through it, and no problems at all except changing out the mainspring, which is normal.
Incidentally, the Artemis also does not have any rating or stars on the kovibazaar website, we those have used it know what it is.

Dear Big Daddy,

I know the history and inspiration , you provided to SDB to come up with their SDB Apache .
You waited for 5 months to develop Apache and became the first owner of this , followed by Lawman.
SDB must feel obliged to you.

Basu

Basu wrote:Dear Big Daddy,

I know the history and inspiration , you provided to SDB to come up with their SDB Apache .
You waited for 5 months to develop Apache and became the first owner of this , followed by Lawman.
SDB must feel obliged to you.

Basu

I did not know that. I am also obliged to BD sir for that too, SDB used all the features of Apache in their new guns, and I got a gun that fulfills all of my needs very precisely.

Basu wrote:SDB must feel obliged to you.

Basu,

you just made my dark cheeks blush pink

BD

nitroex700 wrote: on a bench where it spits great accuracy even out to 100yds in 10kph full cross winds...

Accuracy at 100 yards is a great fun. Apart from hurricane Artemis also claims accuracy at this range, cant think of any other indian rifle that hits this far accurately. What groupings do you get at 100 yards and what about the muzzle velocity for Hurricane ?

ashokharsana wrote: Accuracy at 100 yards is a great fun. Apart from hurricane Artemis also claims accuracy at this range, cant think of any other indian rifle that hits this far accurately. What groupings do you get at 100 yards and what about the muzzle velocity for Hurricane ?

My gun is throwing a little over 12fpe after 2500+ shots. Velocity spread also seems very consistent as reflected in very tight groups at shorter ranges. Accuracy wise it is a very capable gun - I would say sub-2MOA in light to nil wind conditions. I normally shoot it at 90+ yards, still in the process of expanding its shooting envelope whenever I find time..

Upto 50-60yds you can hit a 1-1.5' group depending on your skill and technique, though the shots get more and more difficult to make with increasing distances beyond 75yds. Beyond 60yds as the speed drops rapidly, the effect of wind speed and direction becomes more and more pronounced. Even though you might have the perfect holdover, a judgement error of just 1 kph at 100+ yds is enough to create a group the size of Africa.. So the crosshair/front sight is doing a constant Kentucky-windage tango with the varying wind... The vertical deflection due to crosswind can be as much as 2' while spin drift at that distance is about 1'.. My original intended purpose for the gun was to improve my wind reading skills for long range shooting with which it has definitely helped tremendously.

You might find it more of a challenge to shoot offhand at longer ranges while standing - I normally shoot sitting or prone whenever possible. The original trigger on my gun was rather hard - they sent me a new trigger which has been working fine since the last 1800 shots or more. Being a long stroke gun, it takes every bit of technique to pry out that accuracy. You might want to use some kind of pillow or shooting bag if you want to eliminate the wobble at long range - I have designed a custom one for myself and will be getting it stitched up by some tailor in a few days.

BTW I heard from their sales team recently telling me that their .177 is out in the market. Not sure about the detailed specs or updated features if any. They did say that they have incorporated some new polyethylene guides and piston seals. The price quoted by them was 9000 bucks. I got my old model for 8000 + postage.

Regards,
Nitroex

ashokharsana wrote:

nitroex700 wrote: on a bench where it spits great accuracy even out to 100yds in 10kph full cross winds...

Accuracy at 100 yards is a great fun. Apart from hurricane Artemis also claims accuracy at this range, cant think of any other indian rifle that hits this far accurately. What groupings do you get at 100 yards and what about the muzzle velocity for Hurricane ?

I don't think any sub-15 fpe spring piston AR can shoot out to 100 yards accurately(accuracy being a subjective term).I have the Artemis, and shoot out to 50 metres with consistent accuracy, beyond that while you can hit this and that , like I shot a mortien can at 70 yards. At 100 yards the target should be atleast the size of a bucket to be able to have any consistency at all. Maintaining a 80% hit ratio at 50 metres is very very challenging at targets of 1.5" size . I think the precihole PCP might be able to stretch out a little further like 75-80 yards. For 100 yard shooting your airgun must produce atleast 25-30 fpe and be of great pedigree.

sam 47 wrote: I don't think any sub-15 fpe spring piston AR can shoot out to 100 yards accurately(accuracy being a subjective term).I have the Artemis, and shoot out to 50 metres with consistent accuracy, beyond that while you can hit this and that , like I shot a mortien can at 70 yards. At 100 yards the target should be atleast the size of a bucket to be able to have any consistency at all. Maintaining a 80% hit ratio at 50 metres is very very challenging at targets of 1.5" size . I think the precihole PCP might be able to stretch out a little further like 75-80 yards. For 100 yard shooting your airgun must produce atleast 25-30 fpe and be of great pedigree.

Want to have a shoot mate? Come over to Allahabad on any weekend, will be happy to play host. Forget 12-15 fpe, will show you what's possible with a 6fpe IHP35 in .177 with rock-hard trigger at 100yds....