Indians For Guns

Hi there!

I've been roaming all over my city checking the weapons with various dealers as well as crawling over the internet for good Indian made weapons... (As importing airguns is a major bureaucratic exercise in India...).

I want an 800-1000 fps on a .22, RF plating, adjustable rear sight for windage & elevation, muzzle break/compensator/suppressor & detachable front sights would be a plus. Weight should be under 4kgs, stock of conventional design with cheek rest, wooden or polymer..


But none of the Indian brands have power above 12J. Which means 35 yard limit.. Precihole is the best in power & accuracy - touches 12J... I want to push it further.. Hence I thought abt asking the pros...
Could the wise people of the group please guide me how to go about it.. Or perhaps suggest me people who could help me with the same..?

800-1000 in .22 ?? None.

Basu

Basu da I know the case.. That's why am thinking of buying an AARMR off the shelf then custom-cutting it to suit my preferences... Take out the action then give it a new wooden stock, new spring, washers, hack off the muzzle weight & replace with a good brake/suppresor, optic fiber front sight.. Basically max out its performance....

Or if some of you have a weapons-design experience, perhaps we could consider a tiny custom-guns venture in time....

It's a balance between power and accuracy. Can increase power to reasonable limits but watch out for side effects like vibe, twang etc. Accuracy will suffer. Compare two well tuned rifles, a 350 magnum with it's cousin a 34 (both RWS). 30 meters, I can bet my dollar, 34 will take the lead in accuracy, though lesser in power, still with a punch. Please note, i do not discount 350 being an amazing AR. We have all been through the thirst for power some time or other

BD

Big Daddy wrote:It's a balance between power and accuracy. Can increase power to reasonable limits but watch out for side effects like vibe, twang etc. Accuracy will suffer. Compare two well tuned rifles, a 350 magnum with it's cousin a 34 (both RWS). 30 meters, I can bet my dollar, 34 will take the lead in accuracy, though lesser in power, still with a punch. Please note, i do not discount 350 being an amazing AR. We have all been through the thirst for power some time or other

BD

Sir technically speaking, an AR pellet should be 'stable' so long as it doesn't go supersonic i.e. beyond 1100fps.. To get the desired accuracy from a particular powerplant, one needs to design the other components of the action accordingly - longer barrel, muzzle weights.. these things will have a bearing on the final accuracy as well...
Of course magnums are designed for brute power, so they do what they do!

Also, the pellet weight & type will have an impact too. A light, round nosed, rifled alloy pellet should give the max accuracy with speed. A heavier jumbo-type pellet will deliver most power to the target. Pointed will maximize penetration while hollow point will deliver maximum short range destruction...

Being low powered non-aerodynamic projectiles, pellets lose speed & power very quickly.. Hence we need to optimize the speed - reason why .177 is generally more accurate than .22 which in turn delivers a longer effective range.

Until Precihole came along, 600fps was a dream for most.. While there have been far more accurate 800fps spring rifles abroad since ages.. IMHO if the westerners can do it, why shouldn't we?

Dear main 13,
As far as my experience goes , to exceed 16 jules is difficult with springer.
Those ARs who exceed , must be much superior in terms of design, metarial and engineering.
Its only Aarmar claim to be 20 jules as power output in India when PH claim 16 jules and SDB ApacheSE claims <16 jules.
I am very keen to see Aamar review by some of us.
I go by Big Daddy's opinion that power and accuracy does not go hand in hand.
I can only opine within my limited experience that ARs are very good at 10 fpe.
May be Aarmar is likely to give us a bigger surprise.

Basu

Basu wrote:Dear main 13,
As far as my experience goes , to exceed 16 jules is difficult with springer.
Those ARs who exceed , must be much superior in terms of design, metarial and engineering.
Its only Aarmar claim to be 20 jules as power output in India when PH claim 16 jules and SDB ApacheSE claims <16 jules.
I am very keen to see Aamar review by some of us.
I go by Big Daddy's opinion that power and accuracy does not go hand in hand.
I can only opine within my limited experience that ARs are very good at 10 fpe.
May be Aarmar is likely to give us a bigger surprise.

Basu

Dada I've put forth a few points in my previous post, hope you will agree to those too!

I feel the Indian AR manufacturers lag behind in 'quality control' primarily.. The alloys are the mostly the same, CNCs are there for whoever can buy it.. What's wrong is the 'desi bandook' culture in India... In India, the general image of gun-owners is still associated with the elite oppressive landlords & low life criminals..

The elite can import while the crooks mostly make do with desi kattas, tamanchas & 'bums'..!
The aam janta is not expected to own any bandooks at all - if they start owning guns, life for the rural landlords, mafias & criminals is likely to get very very difficult! But then these same guys sit in the assemblies & sabhas no....

The 'Gandhian' policies of India & associated laws have also played a role in denying Indians quality guns at affordable prices.. Abroad you can buy the best assault rifles & snipers under 1000$.. Out here you can't even dream about them unless you're in the army, no matter how much money you throw... Even our commandos, ATS & SWAT personnel have to make do with inferior trash.. Kanpur manufactures some of the best bullet-proof vests in business, yet our own forces live without them, or at best import garbage from abroad - just so netaji will get his due cut....

Its not that the common Indian man is a pussy, he is just not encouraged to sprout any wings! ("Don't under-estimate the power of a common man..!" )

The market for good quality guns exists very much. Thanks to our sarkari defense research organizations, even our forces have to make do with INSAS, SLR, Sterling & .303... I'm sure if people with penchant for quality start offering good weapons, they might just end up outselling the OFB sooner than they could even imagine..!

main13 wrote:Basu da I know the case.. That's why am thinking of buying an AARMR off the shelf then custom-cutting it to suit my preferences... Take out the action then give it a new wooden stock, new spring, washers, hack off the muzzle weight & replace with a good brake/suppresor, optic fiber front sight.. Basically max out its performance....

Or if some of you have a weapons-design experience, perhaps we could consider a tiny custom-guns venture in time....

Dear main13,

So did you get to customizing AARMR to your specs? If so, please share your wooden stock design. However I am told they are yet fix the trigger issues/design.

Regards,

- Jai

Hai main 13. I agree with your view. Did you know what is the compliance of AARMR air rifles spring? As far as my understand AR spring stores the potential energy during cocking. For getting good velocity the spring should be of good compliance, k value. Then for accuracy, the alignment between barrel and compression chamber should b inline with .01 accuracy.

Added in 13 minutes 56 seconds:
First we had to know or measure force provided by AARMR piston. By measuring area of orifice and pressure we can calculate force.
Force = Pressure / Area. See these are my view and understanding, may b topological errors exists please correct if any

nkarun wrote:Hai main 13. I agree with your view. Did you know what is the compliance of AARMR air rifles spring? As far as my understand AR spring stores the kinetic energy when we compress it during cocking. So the spring should b of good K value. At same it should be able to cock. Then for accuracy the alignment between barrel and compression chamber should b inline with .01 accuaracy

Added in 13 minutes 56 seconds:
First we had to know or measure force provided by AARMR piston. By measuring area of orifice and pressure we can calculate force.
Force = Pressure / Area. See these are my view and understanding, may b topological errors exists please correct if any

your high school physics is in dire need of reinforcement, hope you are not treading on the rarefied mathematical discipline of topology as yet

AARMR just change over to conventional stock and sort out the trigger issues - rest can be taken care of by our resident experts.

Added in 6 minutes 54 seconds:
Dear Ganesh I didn't get wat you are pointing. Is it about my physics or maths or did you mean its not possible to realize wat I said? It will b helpful if you can specify were s the loose end.

Dear Ganesh I didn't get wat you are pointing. Is it about my physics or maths or did you mean its not possible to realize wat I said? It will b helpful if you can specify were s the loose end.

It wud lso b btr f u go bk 2 ur hi skool engls lso.

jksunwar wrote: So did you get to customizing AARMR to your specs? If so, please share your wooden stock design. However I am told they are yet fix the trigger issues/design.

AARMR chaps have kept parrying & postponing things in true Indian defence PSU style.. So I've been left waiting for its 'final' version since last ice age in a true Indian forces' customary comic-tragedy.. Been contending with shooting my good old Diana in the meantime.

According to reports by some users it seems their new trigger is good or even slightly than that of precihole, so guess that's where we Indians should stop fancying too much - at the end of the day, Boss, Wife & DRDO always win in India..!

Their powerplant has matured & throwing lot more power than earlier apparently. So much so, they're coming out with a lighter, 'underpowered', 'kiddie' version of the gun. Trigger also seems ok now. Stock will still be the same.

I suppose I'll buy the gun, shoot it a bit, drag it around in the bushes, see how comfortable I find it then decide what I want to do with this beast!

jksunwar wrote:AARMR just change over to conventional stock and sort out the trigger issues - rest can be taken care of by our resident experts.

I would say get the gun, shoot few thousand rounds then decide what you want. Trigger is ok now people are saying.

nkarun wrote: Dear Ganesh I didn't get wat you are pointing. Is it about my physics or maths or did you mean its not possible to realize wat I said? It will b helpful if you can specify were s the loose end.

Wrong formulae, too much abbreviation.. Pricklies(as in Grizzlies) don't like it!