Indians For Guns

Hi Guys,
> It took me sometime to figure out that the over-all weight of an AR played a significant role while shooting...
> While the average weight of an AR is between 7 1/2 lbs & 8 lbs, the addition of a scope increased it by another 1 to 1 1/2 lbs thus taking its weight close to 10 lbs +... This I felt was a tad too much especially if one were to use the 'artillery hold' which by far contributes to consistent good groups...
> Peep sights have an advantage over open sights - many serious shooters prefer this - while aligning the front & rear sights requires a bit more of steadiness in the hold...
> This led me to ponder (since most AR shooting is done to a distance not exceeding 40 yards) and consider the choice of opting for a "Red Dot" sight....
> The perceived advantages were:
1.A clear view of the target
2.Comparative easy placement of the 'Red Dot' on the target
3.Provision to adjust windage & elevation with ease
3.Reduced weight of the AR - enabling a steadier hold
> So after a bit of research I finally zeroed on the HAWKE Red Dot Sight that's well known for its optics, construction & ergonomics.
> Will be mounting it on my SAMURAI 3G over the week-end & test it with 15gr Precipel Round Heads & 14gr MasterShot Wad cutters... Till then here's what the HAWKE Red Dot Sight looks like along with its specs...


HAWKE SPORT - RED DOT SIGHT

PRODUCT
* The newly designed 30mm Sport Dot from Hawke® Optics weighs only 140 grams (1/4 lbs) including the mount.
* The Sport Dot features a three position brightness control and easy finger adjustable turrets for WINDAGE and ELEVATION with both 9-11mm and weaver mounts.
* The Sport Dot is powered by two LR44 button cell batteries (order code BA7828).
* O-ring sealed to keep out the weather, the SPORT DOT (RED) is tough and durable.
* Hawke® Red-Dot sights offer many features as standard - 4 / 5 M.O.A Red Dot with eleven brightness settings, fully coated optics and a wide field of view to provide extra light gathering.
* Clear view 5ft at 50 yards.
* Fixed focus enables use on Air Rifles, Pistols, Shotguns and Bows.

FEATURES
* Unlimited eye relief
* 25 layer Multi-coated optics
* Designed for quick target acquisition
* Waterproof, shockproof and fog proof
* Hawke® 1yr warranty
Briha

Nice sight Brihaji,

Congratulations on having a red eye



TC

Congrtas Brihaji for your new toy . If I recall correctly in one of the blogs of BB Peltier he compared the red dot with a scope on a TX 200. And according to his result the scope gives better accuracy with different pellets compared to the red dot sight. Any way the pros of red dot sights do appeal its use & I am planning to get one red dot sight as well for my IHP.
regards Moulindu

Congratulations Briha.
You will, however, find that a 4/5MOA red dot will obscure a significant amount of the target, rendering precise placement of your shots difficult.

Ji,
kindly post a picture after you fix on you rifle.
regards
dr.jk

moulindu wrote: According BB Pelltier with TX-200 the scope gives better accuracy with different pellets compared to the red dot sight. Any way the pros of red dot sights do appeal its use & I am planning to get one red dot sight as well for my IHP.
regards
Moulindu

Hi Molindu,
> Well BB Pelletier has had his 'say'
> Now wait & see what 'Briha' has to say after testing the Red Dot Sight on his Samurai
> After all a scope is a scope & a red dot sight is a red dot sight...
> The red dot sight manufacturers have designed it with a purpose & mind you they are not competing with scopes....
> Considering its compactness, light weight & easy handling its worth a try - what do you say?
> Go ahead & get one for your IHP & let's share our experiences
Briha

xl_target wrote:Congratulations Briha.
You will, however, find that a 4/5MOA red dot will obscure a significant amount of the target, rendering precise placement of your shots difficult.

> Thank you xl_target
> Please log on to this link below, it gives an extensive analysis on Red Dot Sights....
Facts and Figures About Red Dot Sights - The Encyclopedia ...
www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm
Excerpt:
The red dot sight is possibly the greatest innovation in competitive pistol shooting in ... This distance is the sight's "sweet spot" and likely where it will perform best against ... To better compare the two sights, I charted these findings below....
Before rushing out to purchase any dot sight, I suggest that you gaze through it to see if it meets your needs. In regards to quality control and longevity, one standard is fairly clear - avoid any brand or model that is manufactured in China.

On a positive note, in this game of bullseye shooting, I have seen more military shooters over the past 15 years at all of the big matches using the basic UltraDot model than any other sight - and without question, these guys are truly the pros of the sport.
Briha

Congrats Brihaji... lets see some groups once you fit and zero it.

-Inder

This is what the internals of a RED DOT Sight look like…
The Mechanics of a Dot Sight
Understanding how a dot sight works is important in determining why DOT SIGHTS behave the way that they do.
There is nothing magical about them - the system is actually quite simple. The sight includes a concave lens with an extremely thin metallic coating that reflects red light but transmits other colors freely. The "dot" reticle itself is simply a reflection of a light emitting diode mounted inside the sight tube. The result is a red dot that appears as if it is "projected" upon the target as you look through the tube. To make sight (point-of impact) adjustments, two screws that work opposite of coil springs adjust ELEVATION and WINDAGE by moving the inner tube with the LED either horizontally or vertically.
Briha

Hi Guys,
> The Hawke Red Dot Sight turned out to be a cute little gizmo....
> The pack contained:
1.The Hawke Red Dot Sight
2.A single weaver type mount - suitable for 11mm scope rail
3.Allen key to fix it
4.instruction leaflet

> Couldn't test it as there were house guests... Will do the testing over the week-end & post the pics...
> Till then....
Briha

brihacharan wrote:

xl_target wrote:Congratulations Briha.
You will, however, find that a 4/5MOA red dot will obscure a significant amount of the target, rendering precise placement of your shots difficult.

> Thank you xl_target
> Please log on to this link below, it gives an extensive analysis on Red Dot Sights....
Facts and Figures About Red Dot Sights - The Encyclopedia ...
www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm
Excerpt:
The red dot sight is possibly the greatest innovation in competitive pistol shooting in ... This distance is the sight's "sweet spot" and likely where it will perform best against ... To better compare the two sights, I charted these findings below....
Before rushing out to purchase any dot sight, I suggest that you gaze through it to see if it meets your needs. ...................

On a positive note, in this game of bullseye shooting, I have seen more military shooters over the past 15 years at all of the big matches using the basic UltraDot model than any other sight - and without question, these guys are truly the pros of the sport.
Briha

Brihaji,
I have several red dot sights and have used them for a while on a variety of firearms. I do like them but only for certain purposes.
There is nothing wrong with red dot sights but on a precision air rifle at 10 meters, you will find that they can be a hindrance to one hole groups.

You will find several issues that make them not perfectly suitable for one hole groups or precision shooting.
1. The larger the dot, while easier to pick up, the more of the target that is obscured. You will find that you end up trying to center them over the target and this negates any speed advantage that you may derive from them versus a scope. A 5MOA dot will cover .625" at 12.5 yards.
2. Parallax issues at close range can be a problem when trying for precision.
3. Compared to a dedicated air rifle scope with an adjustable objective or "focus control", there is no comparison.
The article that you linked to points out most of the shortcomings of the red dot sight.

They do have advantages though. For the speed at which a target can be acquired, especially when shooting with both eyes open, they have few competitors.This makes them ideal for combat style shooting or snap shooting at larger targets while hunting. They also allow for a tremendous amount of peripheral vision. For aging eyes like mine, they make a viable alternative to iron sights for quick target acquisition.

In regards to quality control and longevity, one standard is fairly clear - avoid any brand or model that is manufactured in China.

There is a caveat there. Chinese Optics have become better but it depends on the price point. Some of the higher priced optics made in China are perfectly acceptable. For anything under a $100 - $150, I would be leery of them.

Be aware that Bullseye shooters are concerned with hitting a 5.5" and 8" bull at 25 and 50 yards respectively. A very far cry from 10m air rifle.
Also be aware that the Aimpoint Pro's and Trijicon ACOG's used by the military are $500 and $1200 (minimum) respectively. The Docter reflex sights used by many pro handgun shooters are in the $400 - $600 range. The Ultradot Matchdots (2 MOA; smallest dot) are in the $250 range.

Please don't take this as criticism of your choice. Ultimately, everyone must decide what works best for them.
While one thing might not work for one person, it might work for someone else.
Let us know how it goes. Eagerly awaiting your range report.

Briha ,
I am waiting for the testing report.

Basu

Hi xl_target,
> Your observation & analysis are well taken - thanks.....
> Like you verily opined - There's nothing to beat a variable scope, with adjustable objective & properly zeroed for precision shooting...
> Experimentation has always been a matter of fun & challenge for me & now with the Red Dot Sight!
> This week-end should reveal some home truths
Briha

Hi Guys!
The eagerly awaited ‘tests’ with my new Hawke Red Dot Sight, took place over the last week-end…

I submit that the excitement got the better of me which resulted in my opting for the ARs to be bench rested rather than my usual ‘sitting knee rested’ posture…

In testing the Red Dot Sight my intension was not to compare its performance against Scopes or Open Sights, but to get the feel & experience in using this sight…

To me it was quite novel & satisfactory… although keeping the Red Dot steady on target was a bit demanding – probably since it was the first time I ever used such a sight….

The one thing that impressed me was the palpable reduction in weight of the AR without the scope which tends to add an extra 500gms to 600gms including the single piece mount which I normally use with my scopes….

The tests were conducted by fixing the Red Dot Sight on my super tuned IHP 35 22cal (SAMURAI) & TURBOSHOT 22cal which was custom made for me by the late Tirtha of Target Tune. The pellets used were Precipel 15gr Round Heads & Mastershot (Export) 14gr Wadcutters.

I conclude that ‘PRECISION SHOOTING’ beyond 25 yards with Red Dot Sights may not prove satisfactory (here’s where Scopes score hands-down!) but the joy one gets out of random plinking especially to see cans & bottles tumble with every shot is something to be experienced….

Since branded Red Dot Sights do not cost as much as a good AR rated scope – it’s still worth going in for one for its novelty and enjoy shooting with it….




BRIHA

Briha Garu -
Congrats on your latest piece.
We finally get to see the results of your experiment.
You must've really enjoyed the novelty factor of the Red Dot.
How about trying out the GSmith Hi-Impacts next time ?