My ORION 22cal now fitted with a Gas Ram!

[Big Daddy]

Brihaji,
i notices on the box that Precihole pellets is manufactured by G Smith. IMO, G Smith make the best pellets in India. What is the difference between both? Could you please shed some light on this?.
BD

[airgun_novice]

another statement I do have a little problem with is...." it is a step in the right direction ". is it ?? and if so in what way?[SNIP]

If I may, IMHO PH has *not* taken a STEP in the right direction - but a LEAP in the right direction. Who/ What defines the direction ? The primary two factors are the Corporate Vision & the Customer Desire. Had the older players in the AR market paid attention to either or both, then even the entry of a new player like PH would not have happened. The comparison has been drawn in the past to Amby v/s Maruti in the *entry* segment. Even today I stand by it.

Was the shooting fraternity satisfied with what the IHP and SDB et al dished out ? Did they ever pay heed to what the Customer desired ? I remember PH coming in for a lot of flak, often unjustified, for just about anything that could be thrown by vested interests. And yet PH surmounted not only in terms of customer care but also the range and quality of products it continues to dish out. No one had the fair sense to point out that the older players were full of "jettisoned undigested food" and neither did they pay heed to what the Customer desired nor to what they offered in the first place. Even a reputed company like IHP continued to ship out ARs with cracked stocks, poorly welded side-screw bridges that came off, screws that needed to be tightened after 10 shots and fore-sights perfectly aligned imperfectly. Did they offer to take back the product and repair and ship it free ? What was the thought process and innovation that had gone in there in the first place ? The barrels of .177 continued to be churned out on Hammerli machines that the late Shri. Walchand Hirachand imported (May he RIP) - they surprisingly after so many decades continued to be good. The later introductions were the result of one outsider's passion and genius and yet IHP "cut corners" in terms of quality and efficiency delivered by those very products, simply because the AR division formed a minuscule revenue of the overall. The less said about the Kolkota producers the better.

Fast forward to PH. The first decision they made was to pull all the plugs when it came to starting the AR business. Being a mute witness to various stages of design and production of various parts, I can say with all honesty that I have seen the efforts they have put in at all levels. Being motivated to give the shooting fraternity a level field at least in terms of *entry* level air rifles with respect to international brands, was the Corporate Vision which I daresay they have achieved and continue to strive for with considerable success. Surely, they had some *teething problems*, for which they were heavily panned on this forum - but then nobody bothered about the older players who continue to have *denture problems*. Au contraire, PH was quick to pull its act together. Subsequent design improvements, be it increasing the length of Allen screw by a couple of mm in the trigger unit, attempted to iron out those niggles. PH even repaired/ replaced and then shipped back problematic pieces at its own expense. Surely they had problems setting the dealer network up for which much was written, but once they had the network in place, flow of information and delivery of product was smooth. Has anyone here applauded them for it ?

Practically every Indian AR came apart in its first month or two - every AR required "tuning" in its first year itself often with the change of spring that lost its shape akin to most Indian tummies. PH thought of bring a product that could shoot straight out of the box for a long time without the user having to tune it, practically ever. Of course, why not tune it to give more than 12 ft-lb force or an fps of 1200 etc etc ??? But then we might as well ask why not an RPG Launcher or a Pinaki ?

What of products ? Surely they brought out three initial products - the Orion (.22), the Pegasus (.177) and the Club (.177). See the Vision here ? See the service to Customer Desire ?
*** Orion - the casual plinker that forms most of the shooting fraternity
*** Pegasus - the slightly serious shooter who shoots in the club and the in the field (-> FIELD TARGET to be knocked off with .177) and shoots often up to 50m
*** Club - the entrants, the novices who join the club to learn to shoot and take it up as a sport in the 10m range.
What about the stock ? Fools have talked rubbish about the "plastic". Surely being a polymer it *is* a type of plastic. NO one paid attention to its being a space age material, a glass embedded polymer - a very costly investment !!! But a very durable one too. Something the shooter would not have to think about chipping or cracking.

So did PH keep churning the same products over and over ? Or did they even wait for the "break even" ? They not only improved upon the existing products but brought out newer range - again, to fulfill the Customer Desire to match against the similar international brands which are either not affordable or hard to get due to Government policies. Not wishing to get into the differences in shooing a springer or a nitro or a PCP - I only wish to say this - the AFFORDABLE CHOICE now rests in the hands of Indian shooting fraternity for the first time. While Air Pistols is a very negligible and niche market dominated by EU brands at both the club and competitive world levels - PH is diving into that very zone, just so that an OPTION would become available for entry level shooters who can ill afford to shell out over a Rs. 100000+ tag. Indians have often complained about lack of availability of good pellets or consistency by Indian manufacturers, even those of repute. PH has ventured into that very world by giving STRICT specifications as to its own production and quality control by the reputed manufacturer. Had any other Indian AR manufacturer bothered to do that ? PH also plans to complete the Bouquet to the Indian Shooter by offering PCP products at the earliest, some say a year - but I am willing to wait a bit longer. If all this in totality isn't the step in the right direction, then what is ?

Point to note is that PH is only investing heavily in various verticals for the sake of the direction it wishes to take - for the sake of its Corporate Vision and Customer Desire and as yet I do not think it has broken even. I hope I am wrong here and I do not have access to their Balance Sheet. But seeing the level of committed investment, my guess is that it would be quite a while before they run for profit. It is in this respect that I support the statement above. I consider myself to be an "aam" Indian Shooter - no political overtones here.

The Disclaimer -> I am neither a spokesperson nor an agent in any capacity of the Precihole Sports Company. I am however an ardent fan of the Company products and people therein, due to what it stands for and what it offers and at what price and for the capabilities of people involved. My introduction to the Company and some of the people therein and thereout is all credit to the IFG forum.

regs
A.

PS: I have no intention to bump the original thread, but it did meander a bit and a question raised. I have merely contributed my 2 cents worth of thoughts as a logical outflow to that question.

[airgun_novice]

Brihaji,
i notices on the box that Precihole pellets is manufactured by G Smith. IMO, G Smith make the best pellets in India. What is the difference between both? Could you please shed some light on this?.
BD

Dear BD,

Hope it's OK if I answer since I have relevant public information shared by PH.

Precihole pellets are designed and parameters assigned by PH. Strict adherence to all aspects including quality control and various parameters are requested of gSmith in their manufacture. In fact even the tin holding those pellets is designed at PH and its production sourced out. Face diameter and texture, bevel consistency and texture, skirt diameter and thickness etc. all such pellet parameters contribute to flight characteristics.

gSmith makes a range of pellets, even in the same cal and in same style e.g. in FH .177, they have R-10 (for AR and AP), Competiton, Amateur etc. Only gSmith can answer why and what are the differences. But as of now, methinks PH has .177 in dome and FH (for competitions/ club usage) and dome in .22.

Any more information anyone wishes to add ? Please share. Thx.

regs
A.

[brihacharan]

Brihaji,
i notices on the box that Precihole pellets is manufactured by G Smith. IMO, G Smith make the best pellets in India. What is the difference between both? Could you please shed some light on this?.
BD

Dear BD,

Hope it's OK if I answer since I have relevant public information shared by PH.

Precihole pellets are designed and parameters assigned by PH. Strict adherence to all aspects including quality control and various parameters are requested of gSmith in their manufacture. In fact even the tin holding those pellets is designed at PH and its production sourced out. Face diameter and texture, bevel consistency and texture, skirt diameter and thickness etc. all such pellet parameters contribute to flight characteristics.

gSmith makes a range of pellets, even in the same cal and in same style e.g. in FH .177, they have R-10 (for AR and AP), Competiton, Amateur etc. Only gSmith can answer why and what are the differences. But as of now, methinks PH has .177 in dome and FH (for competitions/ club usage) and dome in .22.

Any more information anyone wishes to add ? Please share. Thx.

regs
A.

> AGN,
> You have said it all - if at all anything is to be added - it'll be repeating what you've said in a different style or manner

Briha

[mercury]

Briha.....you are being very modest when you state that; ....." The tests reveal that Precipells group a shade better than the RWS!..." that's not a shade better....that's very good in comparison !

AGN.... i am neutral on my comments or views posted here and i stand by my statement.

seriously , in what way does a gas ram indicate a " leap" in the right direction ?? just as much as how would a PCP indicate any ' movement" ? its not that every person who buys an air gun will move on to a gas ram and finally a pcp. also ".. Not wishing to get into the differences in shooing a springer or a nitro or a PCP..." , well now, that has me stumped as that was the point of the statement !! the best i would look at it is that it is only a natural/ scientific progression in the optimum use of air power to propel a projectile. i will not comment on other Indian AR manufacturers but yes, PH has definitely had the courage to move on and provide the Indian air gun fraternity with a new range of well made products and as you rightly point out "...the AFFORDABLE CHOICE.."

as to your comments on the stock and "...fools have talked rubbish..."; surely, that is a matter of choice. some may prefer space age while others would prefer to be traditional ( stone age ??) and prefer wood. or is polymer a step in the right direction ?? like the "newer" gas ram ? thats a matter of choice and not necessarily a step in the right direction.

direction may define corporate vision and customer needs .....but the truth is.... at the end of the day brand loyalty is the bigger challenge.

AGN , lets get real here. a corporate's direction is based on a market reality and the exploitation of that market.

to me the air gun seems to have completed its evolutionary cycle. from the early crude compressed air guns to spring , co2, on to gas rams and back to modern compressed air systems. the only challenge now being , which manufacturer comes out with a larger bore....evolutionary cycle complete. we make bigger clubs in walnut with thumb holes for better grip !!

[brihacharan]

To me the air gun seems to have completed its evolutionary cycle. from the early crude compressed air guns to spring , CO2 on to Gas Rams and back to modern compressed air systems. the only challenge now being , which manufacturer comes out with a larger bore!!!

Hi mercury,
> While I agree with your response - the highlighted bit is giving me the jitters
> If this were to happen in India (Atleast it has in the US where 0.25cal is available in Air Guns) it would result in the ARs delivering higher energies (fpe) which comes with the risk of catching the eye of the "Wet Blankets" who are waiting for an opportunity to impose 'licencing' for possessing ARs.
> IMHO the 'venerable' 0.22 cal fits the bill for every AR enthusiast - a 'midway' caliber in ARs that provides hours of pleasurable shooting - be it target or plain plinking...
> In the current AR scenario in India, the introduction of Gas Rams is a very welcome initiative...
> I truly wonder if any existing AR manufacturer would have ventured in taking this 'leap' - especially the effort & vision that has gone into the basic designing which provided for this change over (just remove the spring assembly & insert a Gas Ram) without the need to alter the existing mechanism. To me this is a great engineering innovation
> Let me confess that having shot springers for over 50 years - Shooting an AR fitted with Gas Ram was an experience of a different kind altogether - enjoyable & satisfying.......
> One fact worth considering is that a Springer has the affinity to shoot smoothly & accurately only with pellets of a certain weight - whereas ARs with Gas Rams can easily accommodate heavier pellets with ease.
Briha

[fantumfan2003]

While choice of synthetic stock is indeed a matter of personal preference, long term and continued availability of consistently good quality wood is impossible, besides making it an expesive proposition, hence I believe the business call of leaning towards synthetic stock. And the latest wood stock finish synthetic stock needs a close inspection to believe its not wood. I will try and get you a picture if I can.

M.

as to your comments on the stock and "...fools have talked rubbish..."; surely, that is a matter of choice. some may prefer space age while others would prefer to be traditional ( stone age ??) and prefer wood. or is polymer a step in the right direction ?? like the "newer" gas ram ? thats a matter of choice and not necessarily a step in the right direction.

direction may define corporate vision and customer needs .....but the truth is.... at the end of the day brand loyalty is the bigger challenge.

AGN , lets get real here. a corporate's direction is based on a market reality and the exploitation of that market.

to me the air gun seems to have completed its evolutionary cycle. from the early crude compressed air guns to spring , co2, on to gas rams and back to modern compressed air systems. the only challenge now being , which manufacturer comes out with a larger bore....evolutionary cycle complete. we make bigger clubs in walnut with thumb holes for better grip !!

[airgun_novice]

Dear mercury,

Your views are very welcome and provide neutral ground for a healthy debate. Now wrt the polymer stock, as FF rightly pointed out supply of good grain wood is a problem. Walnut wood is a restricted item even out of the state of J&K and seldom grows elsewhere. What I talked wrt "rubbish" was some set of comments without understanding the nature of polymer held in hand or owned. Anyway, as the trend the world over is even firearms, let alone the air rifles, have started shifting from traditional wood to polymers - "synthetic" they call it. So well, if synthetic is the trend then once again PH has scored over the traditionalists, i.e. Wood stock guys. Personal confession here - I am partial to wood myself and to break barrel springers. May be at a later date as I come across a skilled carpenter, I will try the wooden option out. Well now with the thumb-hole expectations, may be in near future once their PCP comes out in the market PH might even venture into "Alu-Stocks", who knows ! So I shall keep my fingers crossed and pray that if not us, the next generation shall have access to another range of affordable Indian products which are on par with the international competition.

regs
A.

PS: Sorry for missing out on what would be a critical point - springer v/s gasram v/s PCP shooting ? Nothing to be stumped here. It's casual plinking v/s ease in cocking and reduced recoil v/s the pleasurable sound/ feeling of "thawk" v/s training for competitions v/s participating in competitions. Let us see what the future holds - Que sera sera...

[brihacharan]

[quote="fantumfan2003"]While choice of synthetic stock is indeed a matter of personal preference, long term and continued availability of consistently good quality wood is impossible, besides making it an expesive proposition, hence I believe the business call of leaning towards synthetic stock. And the latest wood stock finish synthetic stock needs a close inspection to believe its not wood. I will try and get you a picture if I can.
M.

> Synthetic Stocks for ARs have been introduced for the following reasons...
WOOD
1. Good quality wood is getting scarce & expensive...
2. Time consuming as it takes several man-hours to produce one...
3. Depended on hand skills especially while making inlets for receiver bedding & 2 stage trigger assembly...
4. Chances of warping, cracking or even breaking at odd places - making repairs daunting / impossible to restore to the original...
5. Needs periodic refurbishing such as polishing, waxing, melamine coating etc....
6. Possibilities of damage due to chipping, deep scratches while used outdoors...
SYNTHETIC
> With advanced technology in injection molding & superior polymers - results in economy of production....
> Can be molded to high precision especially the internals for perfect bedding of receivers & 2 stage trigger assembly...
> Does not warp, chip, crack even in extreme weather conditions....
> Can incorporate checkering at the fore-end & pistol grip in the mold itself (in wood its manually done)....
> Lighter as compared to wood...
> Can be given a variety of finishes such as Walnut, Mahogany, Teak, Camo etc to suit personal preferences...

@ In the absence of alternate material in the days gone by, 'Wood' was the only choice for making gun stocks & we have been conditioned to accepting it as the only choice.... (All said & done wood has its place of pride)...
@ Come to think of it - If a Walnut/ Mahogany finished Synthetic Stocked Gun is given off-hand to an average shooter, would he / she be able to feel the difference? It does not affect the performance of the gun in any way - Does it?????
@ In good old days Car Interiors such as its Dash Board was made of wood - Today most cars come with Synthetic molded Dash Boards which come with Wood Finish!!!!

> Finally a point to consider is that "The stock's only purpose / function is to hold the metal action of the gun in place"...It has no dynamic part to play (linear, rotary, oscillating movements) in the discharge of the gun!!! It's a Furniture!!!!
> Well - each one to his / her own - But Synthetic Stocks are here to stay
Briha

[jatindra Singh Deo]

To add to the above discussions I would mention the wood finish synthetic stocks of CZ .22 LR rifles .I used a couple of them at Talcher Rifle club at their annual event .It took me by surprise when a senior member told me the stocks are synthetic (procured through NRAI) .If the precihole stocks are similar synthetic wood I have no complains !!As far as the rifles are concerned ,Orion is a little pellet fussy ,NX100 .22 is not .The products are concerned ,if not a weihrauch but still best in class in India and almost world class period ! (I own a Orion , NX 100 for a close relative and loved the golden trigger )Note: I am no way associated with precihole .

[brihacharan]

May be at a later date as I come across a skilled carpenter, I will try the wooden option out. Well now with the thumb-hole expectations, may be in near future once their PCP comes out in the market PH might even venture into "Alu-Stocks", who knows ! So I shall keep my fingers crossed and pray that if not us, the next generation shall have access to another range of affordable Indian products which are on par with the international competition.

> May be at a later date as I come across a skilled carpenter, I will try the wooden option out.
> Skilled Carpenters are a "Vanishing Breed"... They are getting rarer than the "Dodos"
> Allow me to share my abominable experience - When I acquired Precihole's ORION I was tempted to change its Synthetic Stock to a Wooden One....
> After searching high & low I managed to locate a "Highly Skilled" carpenter (his credentials were immaculate & some of his work was highly commendable)...
> When I showed him the Orion's synthetic stock his casual remark was - No problem Sir it can be done!
> So together we scouted the timber yards & located a nice piece of Malaysian Teak (known for its lightness & strength + excellent grain structure)paid him an advance to get the work started.
> After a fortnight he delivered the stock & when I saw it I was amazed at his handiwork - paid his balance & thanked him.
> My enthusiasm was 'short-lived' - The receiver + action after fitting did not enable me to cock the gun...
> Fearing that any forced attempt would damage the cocking mechanism - I hurried to Precihole -
> Doc. Shirsat took one look & said "The internals of the stock has been messed up - the precise slots for the movement of the hinged cocking lever did not conform to specifications....Nothing could be done to restore it....
> After paying a fortune for the wood & carpenter I was left with an exquisitely finished piece of "Firewood"
> Its another story - That even before Precihole came up with its Wood Finished stocks - I had sourced my own facility & got my Orion stock with a mahogany finish (see my earlier post with pics)

Briha

[fantumfan2003]

Here is a crop of a picture I took and spruced up on my smartphone, of some of the new models that were launched recently. Amongst others it shows the synthetic wood version that has beautiful laminated effect. I love wood stocks myself but gotta be practical and environmentally responsible so this is the stock I will go for.

M.

[Big Daddy]

Dear BD,

Hope it's OK if I answer since I have relevant public information shared by PH.

A.[/quote]

Thanks airgun_novice.

[fantumfan2003]

A better picture of the synthetic stock in wood finish. It looks just like wood.

M.

[pratik_mahale]

Just to show the power of Nitro Piston see what happen to pellets at 25 Yards

Pellets at 25 Yards.jpg