Deal wood is a big deal

[bennedose]

here you go Bennodose.

piston stroke / swept volume can be manipulated if one has the required skills so I doubt if there is any legal restriction on the part of manufacturers to size their pistons and cylinders. slap down your rifle barrel and check the slack. it would in all probability have to do with the perceived tolerance levels of their products.

I would think that Precihole is the only ( from what has been posted here) Indian rifle that has ensured that their product can not be manipulated with.

also a smaller diameter piston can produce more power than a larger diameter piston , given that the stroke length is the same. pls don't ask me for the math , but surface area has a role here. (??????) and of course it is not just the longer stroke that adds to the power....there is more to it.

anyways hope this data helps with your study.

Heck thanks a million. I didn't even think this data was available. Fascinating to read about the smaller diameter being able to generate higher power. Will try and work on how that happens. That is a great table,

In fact in another thread where we were discussing how each of us cocks a springer I realized that the Precihole Orion has no slack. The cocking starts as soon as the barrel is broken enough to disengage the lock. So for me it is virtually impossible to do a two-movement cocking of the Orion, although I can break first and cock after that in a separate movement with the others

[fantumfan2003]

Dev,



GOLDEN WORDS INDEED......

But its lost on everyone.

for bringing it up.

M.

Sir,
My belief is that an air rifle should do what you expect from an air rifle. It should not mimic the performance of a .22lr, I mean the tool should fit the job right?
When I need to do 50m and beyond shooting I reach for my firearm. Otherwise the air rifle loses the fun factor and becomes sinister in nature.

Regards,

Dev

[bennedose]

Let me make one final post in support of the deal wood test. It is after all the law and my tests tell me that the law is fine, but our air rifle manufacturers (other than Precihole) are no better than the Hindustan motors Ambassador/Premier Fiat category of people with dead brains

After a 3 week wait I managed to acquire 4 boards of 12 x 12 inch and 1 inch thick deal wood as specified by the law. These are such handsome boards it seems a shame to shoot them full of holes as I did. Here is an image of the boards. Each is a solid thing that weights 1.5 kg
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4I ... sp=sharing

All my air rifles passed the test with ease and this tells me something. My Orion gives me a power level of nearly 10 fpe. Pellets fired at the deal wood board penetrate 1/4 inch into the board (as measured by cutting the wood and using a Vernier caliper). The image below shows the pellet embedded in the wood and cut through.

Here is an image of one of my deal wood boards cut through the pellet in the board to show depth of penetration. (The photo shows a 1 inch square block enlarged)
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4I ... sp=sharing

Now I know that my Orion and IHP 35 both have a power rating of less than 10 fpe. Both will penetrate 1/4 inch deal wood. they barely break through the back of 1/2 inch deal wood. They do not penetrate 1 inch deal wood as the law stipulates.

But the law clearly allows a lot more than what Indian manufacturers provide. if Indian air rifle manufacturers had any innovation or sense they would make prototype rifles of 12 fpe, 15 fpe 18 fpe and 20 fpe power and perform the deal woood test to see the exact power levels below which the power remains within the legal limit.

I am certain that the deal wood test as per the law allows power levels far more than 12, I suspect that power levels of 15 or 18 fpe will still pass the deal wood test. But none of our manufacturers seem to be either interested or aware. It should not be difficult to simply increase the stroke length or volume of the piston chamber and make 3 or 4 prototypes of higher power. But our "khadi gramodyog" air rifle industry remain at baiigaadi (bullock cart) tech levels

It's frustrating...

[bennedose]

I have not been able to find any reference that stats that the legal power limit for air rifles in India is 12 fpe

However it has been said that the "legal power limit" for air rifles in India is set by the deal wood test.

Passing the deal wood test means that the pellet MUST NOT pass through a 1 inch deal wood board. Now deal wood is a type of pine wood. But watch this video

The man says that the "US army established" that it would take 59fpe to penetrate half inch pine wood. If deal wood is pine wood, then 1 inch thick deal wood should need a lot more than 59 fpe. Howevere my own air rifles are able to penetrate half inch deal wood.

There is something totally wrong about the standards and the claims made about standards

1. The statement about the US army's 59 fpe claim may be wrong
2. I bet that it will take a lot more than 12 fpe to penetrate 1 inch of deal wood, so I bet that 12 fpe limit DOES NOT EXIST for India contrary to pouplar belief.

As far as I can tell there is no reason for Indian air rifles to restrict themselves to 12 fpe or less.

What gives?

[tarat]

This is an interesting topic. Old, but interesting. Here is my view on the Deal Wood Test.

I agree with the logic of the technique used to test the power, but do not agree with the actual execution. What it means is this: At the end of the day, the intent is to identify guns that have the ability to be lethal. Now I understand that anything can be lethal when used a particular way; that's not the point. Point is to identify the gun that is UNQUESTIONABLY lethal. Something that does not require a very precise hit on a very specific soft spot to be lethal. A mild air rifle may kill someone if the pellet hits the eye and manages to travel to the brain. But that's too specific. This rifle cannot be pronounced lethal. What about a 22LR? Yes, it's lethal because I can send you to your Maker by hitting you in any "kill zone". The power is there. I dont need to restrict myself to that eye-brain shot. This is the ability that needs to be identified, from a law enforcement perspective. Now the question is, how do you do it?

There are many factors that influence how lethal a rifle can be. For example, energy, velocity, etc. UK uses energy to decide (12 FPE), whereas Canada uses velocity (500 FPS, if I remember correctly). Someone might also say Momentum. Projectile shape. Momentum-caliber ratio .. The point is, this is very complex. So .. Guess what? As they say, the proof of the pudding is in its eating. So there .. Just shoot it and see. The logic is perfect.

The actual execution is a different story. It has many flaws.

[tarat]

The first flaw is the nature of material used to test the penetration. What is needed is some kind of material whose properties are constant and uniform. Maybe some synthetic material ..

Secondly, one cannot use close range lethality as a yardstick. In that case, why just go after guns? Almost anything can be lethal at close range. A heavy stone, a brick, a cricket bat, hockey stick, a knife, an iron pipe ... You name it. A gun is different because it can be lethal from a distance, and so, that is what should be checked. Can it be lethal from 10 meters? Checking from 5 feet distance is a joke. At this distance even a strong man's fist can be lethal!

The third thing, and this has also been pointed out, is that the law should clearly mention that the test shots must be spaced apart by a certain distance because a shot will weaken the material upto a certain radius around the point of impact.

These are my thoughts, but then it's purely academic. The biggest problem with our officials is their attitude and the willingness to misuse their power. It's not that they are dumb and do not understand the logic.

Lecture over. Signing off now. Good night.

[brihacharan]

The biggest problem with our officials is their attitude and the willingness to misuse their power. It's not that they are dumb and do not understand the logic.

> IMHO - The ministry of sports should be headed by a "Sportsman" & not by a 'civil servant' who is trained to observe & follow 'precedents' however backdated they are
Briha

[bennedose]

The point I want to make is that in India there is no 12 fpe limit. The limit is failing the deal wood test. Having done the deal wooud test i would suggest that rifles that exceed 12 fpe - maybe even 14 or 15 fpe may be perfectly legal for India. I thnk that we should not be spreading the false claim that India has a 12 fpe limit. India has a deal wood test limit and if your rifle passes the deal wood test it does not matter even if it is producing 18 fpe. There is no connection between 12 fpe and India in terms of air gun power limit.

[brihacharan]

The point I want to make is that in India there is no 12 fpe limit. The limit is failing the deal wood test. Having done the deal wooud test i would suggest that rifles that exceed 12 fpe - maybe even 14 or 15 fpe may be perfectly legal for India. I thnk that we should not be spreading the false claim that India has a 12 fpe limit. India has a deal wood test limit and if your rifle passes the deal wood test it does not matter even if it is producing 18 fpe. There is no connection between 12 fpe and India in terms of air gun power limit.

> Agreed - But we all know the 'idiosyncratic' behavior of Air Guns - The same gun can pass or fail the 'Deal Wood' test
Briha
'

[bennedose]

> Agreed - But we all know the 'idiosyncratic' behavior of Air Guns - The same gun can pass or fail the 'Deal Wood' test
Briha
'

Yes that is true. But on this forum people are mistakenly spreading the idea that there is a 12 fpe limit in India. For some reason even the Precihole website simply states that its rifles are 12 fpe. The fact is Indian law says nothing about fpe.

If Indian air rifle owners took a i inch deal wood plate and shot 20 shots at it from 5 feet using a Precihole rifle I am sure every one of them would pass the test. In other words, the Indian standard is set at a high level that India's most powerful and well made rifles pass the test. I repeated the test today and the Orion will not penetrate anything more than 1/2 inch of deal wood. That means that there is an extra and unnecessary safety margin being used. I am sure a power level of 14 or 15 fpe would still pass the test. But who will bell the cat?

What would be the power requirement to fail the test consistently? 14 fpe? 18fpe?

No one knows. if the power requirement to fail the deal wood test is as high as 18 fpe there is no reason whatsoever why Indian manufacturers and enthusiasts should not make air rifles up to that limit.

i would urge people to actually get a 1 inch thick deal wood plate and try the test themselves. I think that as the foremost supporters of shooting as a sport in India it is essential that we get our facts right and be in a position to guide industry if need be. As overall literacy increases in India the number of dumbos buying useless air rifles will decrease and there will be a corresponding increase of young, smart, educated sports shooters who need to get the best they can get within the law.

[Basu]

I wish to know that whether any one ever perforated 1" thick deal wood , if so , what was the FPE or the gun.
I am somewhat sure a 12 FPE gun can not perforate it.
Please give your candid view.

Basu

[brihacharan]

I wish to know that whether any one ever perforated 1" thick deal wood , if so , what was the FPE or the gun.
I am somewhat sure a 12 FPE gun can not perforate it.
Please give your candid view.
Basu

> Frankly expecting an AR to perforate a 1" (25.4mm) thick Deal Wood is a "Tall Order"
> I've tried it & failed with 14gr, 15gr & 19gr pellets (Round Heads & Pointed Ones)
Briha

[brihacharan]

In fact I remember having used 14gr Mastershot Round Heads, International Shot 14gr Pointed & GSmith 19gr Hi-Impact pellets in my Super Tuned IHP 35 0.22cal on 1" thick Indian mango wood & the velocity was:

For 14gr = 620fps & 19gr = 570fps. Totally I had fired 5 shots each from an approx. distance of 5 - 6 feet & none of the pellets passed through
Briha

[mooppan]

[ Image ]

here you go Bennodose.

piston stroke / swept volume can be manipulated if one has the required skills so I doubt if there is any legal restriction on the part of manufacturers to size their pistons and cylinders. slap down your rifle barrel and check the slack. it would in all probability have to do with the perceived tolerance levels of their products.

I would think that Precihole is the only ( from what has been posted here) Indian rifle that has ensured that their product can not be manipulated with.

also a smaller diameter piston can produce more power than a larger diameter piston , given that the stroke length is the same. pls don't ask me for the math , but surface area has a role here. (??????) and of course it is not just the longer stroke that adds to the power....there is more to it.

anyways hope this data helps with your study.

thanks man....
i was desperatly serching for this infrormation...& you gave me the whole...