Indians For Guns

interesting video..

Pran,

They make good guns. Both their private as well as public sector firearms are very nice. I just learned that the late Ronald Reagan had a favourite shotgun that was made by a small Pakistani gunmaker. And The Pakistan Defence Expo sowed some very advanced small arms not Chinese stuff like the IOF Expo showed. Just shows what a mess the khadder and topi crowd have made of India's defence sector!

Mehul,

Agree with you.POF is way ahead of IOF.The video said that POF exports ammo to 40 other countries.
btw, do you know anything about Darra in Pakistan? Is it a legal setup?
Pran

hi Pran,
I agree with your point.Darra is a free zone .it is not leagle but Pak govt have planned it to make leagle in the future..I ll give more info on Darra very soon.

Badshah,

Don't really think it's entirely illegal.Found these pics on google.
http://www.photosbybjorn.com/pakistan_darra.htm

Anybody's seen/used any Darra makes? Seen posts of people reccomending Darra shotguns in orkut(shotgun community)

Pran

Pran,

It started with allowing the inhabitants of that region to retain their arms by the successive governments; informally. Subsequently, selective licence for manufacturing only small weapons were being granted. Manufacturers can generally make small weapons of non-military nature.Upto this point it is legal.

The problem arose when copies of assault rifles and other sophisticated weapons started being churned out ; many actually not made but sold through the licenced manufacturers. Under American pressure, Pakistan Govt is trying to :-

1) Restrict manufacturing by licenced persons only.
2) Move , over a period of time to manufacturing of hunting rifles only.
3) Involve POF in marketing the products overseeas ( the hunting rifles).

PS :-- I forgot to add.. Licenced gun makers in Darra get direct export orders also.

Darra adam khel, to give it its full name was a community of gunmakers who started making guns after the British Afghan wars and the subsequent domination of the Brits.
very enterprising chaps, who initially used to make copies of the sniders etc to fight/raid each other and the Brits and anyone else who came in their way.
These guys used to raid the brit railroad , for tracks, trains for meagre supplies and movies were their fav haul-chop up for propellant-the early movies stuff had a large percentage of nitrocellulose!
Gun making was a home industry there and by virtue of being in an autonomous, hands off zone, they flourished well, their 303 SMLE was a hot favourite of all tribesmen for a couple of generations.
They came into prominence during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan- churning out Kalashnikovs was not different from the age old , highly prized 303 SMLE.In a short period, they were churning out everything from AK's to DsH heavy machine guns.
Since then, I guess, there's no looking back. Yes, many dignitaries and leaders have been the repient of Darra workmanship.
best
Axx

Sujay,
Thanks for the info.

Jefe,
Thats very interesting.Especially the part about using nitrocellulose in old movie tapes for propellant

Pran

POF/BS-extreme/Very little value added manufacturing etc.etc., nothing more.

Easy to make videos not products.

Shot POF 7.62--One word--was trash.

Darra guns--Well finished Desi kinda guns. Checked copies of Pistols/Webley revolvers/Martinis/Enfields etc. at gun shows.
Poor metals/Dimensions/poor engineering--Unsafe guns at best.

Re:Shredded film propellant ammo so underpowered 1:15 power compared to real ammo
Much better use shotgun powder reduced loads and lubed lead bullets.

Lesson: Bring IOF people to task--don't dream of trash(POF/Darra products)

Satpal

Satpal,
Was interested in Darra because of someone in a shotgun community talking highly about a Darra made shotgun.you tried any of their shotguns?
Pran

Pran

That shotgun isnt Darra made but by a private firm or company. There is a link in one posting by Abhijeet and this gun did receive decent review in an european magazine per Mehul. Anyway those shotguns looked way better than IOFB twin pipe guns

All the best

Grewal,
Thanks for the info.
Pran

Pran,
Those guns were not meant to be reviewed for the wood to metal finish, but how accurate and 'non blow up' they were.
Simply must have started as a field expediency service, which went on to become a full blown cottage industry.Rather than face the music, successive governments simply looked the other way and a tradition was born.
The Kentucky rifle must have had a similar beginning.While recognised as an art form in its home country, our artisans(cant use a lesser word!) will be thrown into jail and have their eyes gouged out and other sundry punishments...
there was an article in india today a while back, about the home made kattas of bihar, which were found to be on par with many factory finished pistols-we are talking a fully functional semi auto pistol!not crude bicycle pipes or whatever.
If these guys were given a chance to earn a legitimate earning in the govt small arms factory, we might see an end to the katta industry and the dawn of some quality work in our legit guns! Given the fact that our illegal gunmakers are capable of making these pistols with NO power tools ,what would they do with official encouragement and technical support?
Not that i endorse these illegal weapons, but what has been proved over and again is a determined person overcomes!!
Best
axx

Asif,

There is a certain misconception about the skill and type of people manufacturing the illegal weapons in Bihar.

Virtually all the people engaged in this business worked in the Munger Gun Factory till the factory turned sick. Immediate pilferage of stock was followed by attempts to manufacture the arms without substantial success.
Then they hit upon a bright idea in the truest ***ian tradition. Scheduled banks were coerced to grant loans to set up "small business" to the unemployed ;the proceeds of such credit were utilised to purchase the machinery hurriedly classified as "scrap" ( sometimes overnight). This is the reason behind 1) the near acceptable quality of those guns ( not all guns ) and 2)Munger always occupying centrestage in any context of illegal gun manufacturing.

Employing these people won't solve the problem plauging the IOFB because the abysmal quality of IOFB products is not due to the lack of trained machinists. It is the mindset that matters followed by the principles of economics. IMHO of course

Pran:

Out of the Islamic countries, Turkey makes the best Shotguns. Nicely finished and quite cheap in the US. However they are no match for Beretta or Browning Shotguns.

Re: Darra Makers: Daudsons Armory I believe in Peshawar contracts independent Darra gunsmiths and markets their Shotguns. Friends from Lahore tell me the Shotguns are functional and can be beautifully engraved, but no match for imported guns for reliability and durability.
Link to Daudsons Armory:Daudsons Home page

Darra Rifles and Pistols that I have encountered at gun shows, had following problems: Very soft steel, Sharp corners(lowering strength), gaps in rifling and very uneven/rough rifling, poor headspacing, thickness of metal varying at different points for no reason, lots of unsound shortcuts. In one word ready to blow apart guns with modern high powered ammo. For this reason Darra gunmakers often underpower their ammo.

In the 70's we owned land in Sri Hanumangarh in Rajasthan and knew the DM very well. On a visit to Rajasthan once, the guy took my dad to the malkhana and showed some confiscated pistols. Exact copies of Colt 45's/Webley 32's etc, however the engineering/metallurgy was a joke. These were made by local Indian Gunsmiths Illegally.

Like I said before bring IOF to task for living in their own world. India makes decent cars, motorcycles etc., is it too much to make a decent firearm. I don't think so.

BTW, ten years ago when I was heavy into shooting. I owned many rifles that I had assembled myself from war surplus actions and aftermarket barrels etc. Reloaded all my ammo too. My rifles were always less than 1 inch at 100 yards. Ammo never misfired or had any problems be it Rifle/Pistol/Shotguns. All this was done in my Garage workshop and I am only a BE in Mech engineering.

So problem is the Chaps at IOF/Restrictive gun laws not Indian Talent for quality production.

Satpal