Indians For Guns

Why are these guys doing this?? Why taint the name and image of the only institution (probably) which has a standing among people?? And only for a few rupees??

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 293323.cms

Action is being taken against as many 41 Army officers and four retired ones for having sold their "non-service pattern'' (NSP) weapons in the grey market in the border districts of Rajasthan.

Armed forces personnel can obtain prohibited bore weapons, like 9 mm pistols or .30 bolt-action rifles, which are called NSP arms, from ordnance factories at very cheap prices for personal use. This case revolves around some of them selling these weapons in the grey market with the help of a cartel of arms dealers.

"Administrative/disciplinary action has been initiated against 41 Army officers, a JCO and four retired officers for selling their NSP weapons in violation of the extant provisions along with notices for depositing their weapons back with the central ordnance depot at Jabalpur,'' said defence minister A K Antony, in Rajya Sabha on Wednesday.

Moreover, 25 officers who were in possession of more rounds of ammunition than authorised for their NSP weapons have been censured, said the minister, noting that a court of inquiry (CoI) was held to look into the entire case.

"The district collector of Sriganganagar had provided a list of officers who had sold their NSP weapons, which included two major-generals and two brigadiers. The CoI, however, did not find them involved/blameworthy in the matter,'' said Antony.

The district collector of Sriganganagar had provided a list of officers who had sold their NSP weapons, which included two major-generals and two brigadiers. The COI, however, did not find them involved/blameworthy in the matter

If the COI says that they are not involved or blameworthy in the matter, what is the big deal? I know there are some restrictions against selling those arms but if they are legally selling their personal possessions to a person authorized to purchase arms (i.e arms dealers), is there a problem? ( I don't know, I'm asking)

It would be one thing if there were selling their issued arms but these weapons are their personal property. I think the article is kinda unclear as to whether any laws have been broken, apart from possessing excess ammunition. They seem to contradict themselves with the last statement. Most reporters nowadays can't seem to be bothered with checking the "facts" that they report and god forbid, they might have to look and quote from the relevant statute.

By "Non Service Pattern" I think is non prohibited bore weapons. Media usually wants to create a hype out of trivial matters and sensationalize things. If Army personal are selling their personal weapons to authorized arms dealers or license holders, I do not think it should be a problem. Anyways we at IFG are already for a change/removal of this archaic "Arms Act". It is my personal opinion that Army Officers are among those people who would support RKBA because they don't have that "Oh my God it is a firearm" mentality.

Has anyone ever thought, why is it that the Police usually recover only country-made firearms(Katta, tamancha etc.) only? Some people are of the opinion that "foreign made" firearms recovered are very rarely recorded, instead get recirculated into illegal firearms market, as they carry a significant price premium over country-made firearms.

More bullshit (pardon my crap) for mistreating the forces. Dont we have more imprtant thigs to concentrate on?
You have a fre arm.... oh my god! you might sell it...

Maybe legal eagles can shed some light otherwise its much to do about nothing or some one wants to rake some issue up and stop this NSP program.

More bullshit (pardon my crap) for mistreating the forces. Dont we have more imprtant thigs to concentrate on?
You have a fre arm.... oh my god! you might sell it...

I am sorry MoA, I did not understand what you mean by your above reply, maybe you have misunderstood my reply.

its much to do about nothing or some one wants to rake some issue up and stop this NSP program.

I do agree with ngrewal, it also seems to me the same, that someone wants to rake up a non issue to stop the NSP thing that is allowed to armed forces. Or maybe these cases are just an excuse to prosecute the officers and the real motive behind these cases might be something else.

http://stc.gov.in/Tenders/SS05A.pdf
please follow this path the stc is impoting 274 0.32 bore revolvers for sale
earlier they have tasted blood by selling some left overs of pre ban period on mindblowing prices so they might be interested in making more money.

Insofar as I can make out, the problem (legally speaking) is to do the rules regarding sale of Govt. property. If I am not mistaken, when the Govt. disposes off it's property at discounted rates to anyone (as in the case of issue of NSP firearms to serving/ retired personnel), and the buyer desires to further sell the item to someone else, he/ she is liable to share part of the profit arising from such a sale with the Govt. I don't have exact details on how exactly this profit is required to be split but it is certainly a requirement - irrespective of whether the item in question is a car, gun, table, chair, anything...

The basic problem is, that due to market imperfections (created by the Govt.'s policies), the price of firearms is ridiculously high, hence people get a bit greedy. If the price of firearms was realistic, there would be no problem, as there would be little incentive in the way of profit. This NSP system was in place even in my Dad's time, but the waiting lists were not as long and the profit from resale wasn't that much. Most officers wouldn't even bother with the hassle of applying for an NSP firearm to be issued, preferring in stead to buy a decent piece off the open market.

If the Govt. removes the market imperfections, and prices come back to realistic levels, such cases will disappear for good. History shows us, whenever Govt.s interfere with market forces, all manner of evil ensues - ban the import of gold, you get gold smugglers & related crime/ ban the import of electronics, ditto/ ban the sale of liquor in a state, you get bootleggers, moonshiners and related crime etc. etc. So why are we surprised if the current restrictions on firearms production/ sale/ purchase/ import are resulting at one end of the spectrum things like country made firearms being "legalised" through grey channels and being palmed off as genuine Husqvarnas or Berettas or at the other end army officers selling off their NSP firearms for a profit? The real criminal here is the Govt.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

goodboy_mentor wrote:Has anyone ever thought, why is it that the Police usually recover only country-made firearms(Katta, tamancha etc.) only? Some people are of the opinion that "foreign made" firearms recovered are very rarely recorded, instead get recirculated into illegal firearms market, as they carry a significant price premium over country-made firearms.

I was having a chat with a cop (in U.P) a couple of years back, he told me that the one of the biggest buyers of country made firearms were cops, as they were handy for all manner of "police purposes". As to what these "police purposes" could be, you are all smart people...

goodboy_mentor My reply was not directed to you. But rather to the fact that in India we are more motivated to chase and sensationalise non-issues rather than concentrate on more pressing matters.

NSP weapons are those weapons which are captured / seized and are not in use by the armed forces.that would include calibres and makes. so if an AK 47 was captured it would be put back into use. if a shotgun was captured it wouldn't. similarly if say a 9mm pistol was captured even if the make was not in use it would go into the NSP pool. these are then allotted to military guys based on a waiting list ...normally one would get one just prior to leaving service....thats done so that the men can utilise them for jobs in the security sector outside.a license has to be procured before the weapon is sold. if the weapon is PB a person has to get a PB license.

Now , to sell it ,the buyer can do so ONLY to other authorised personnel AFTER getting concurrence from the authority that gave it, and disclosing the price. that is a laid down condition. that means it has to be sold to serving personnel only . or to be returned. cant be sold to arms dealers, family or anyone!!!cant be bequeathed either.

therefore either my brethren are trying to make a fast buck or they have just deposited the arms with the dealers for sale to their fellow service personnel whenever it happens .

if case one....they are in a shit load of trouble. and if case two....well thats the media!!!

Also to update, I still have not got my license and therefore have not purchased the .22 rev!!!

cheers

T

http://stc.gov.in/Tenders/SS05A.pdf
please follow this path the stc is impoting 274 0.32 bore revolvers for sale
earlier they have tasted blood by selling some left overs of pre ban period on mindblowing prices so they might be interested in making more money.

It can be a part of PIL for lifting import ban.

I was having a chat with a cop (in U.P) a couple of years back, he told me that the one of the biggest buyers of country made firearms were cops, as they were handy for all manner of "police purposes". As to what these "police purposes" could be, you are all smart people...

It is a known fact that this is done by Police not only in U.P. but all over India to falsely implicate innocent people in Arms Act either out of vengeance, monetary gratification or at the bidding of the bosses/politicians. Arms Act was a tool of repression by the British, unfortunately it is still in existence in a repainted form in independent India.

casual shooter wrote:http://stc.gov.in/Tenders/SS05A.pdf
please follow this path the stc is impoting 274 0.32 bore revolvers for sale
earlier they have tasted blood by selling some left overs of pre ban period on mindblowing prices so they might be interested in making more money.

Casual Shooter, the link that you have posted doesn't seem to have anything to do with the subject on hand.
It appears to be a request for a quote, generated by the STC, for 200 pieces of a .32 caliber revolver.
They seem to be earmarked for one particular client, probably an official organization, as it is represented by the STC?
Am I missing something here?

The real criminal here is the Govt.

Amen!

It appears to be a request for a quote, generated by the STC, for 200 pieces of a .32 caliber revolver.
They seem to be earmarked for one particular client, probably an official organization, as it is represented by the STC?

Just think why is STC interested in importing .32 when it is already being manufactured by IOF?

Someone doesn't care for the IOF handguns or cannot get them in a large enough quantity at one time? Obviously a Government entity since STC is doing the bidding.

Maybe I am unusually dense today but I still don't see what this has to do with:

41 ARMY OFFICERS FACE ACTION FOR SELLING WEAPONS IN GREY MKT

No wonder even after ban in import, we have brand new weapons available in market, i think this is tip of the iceberg.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 624111.cms

In a shocking disclosure, the Army on Friday admitted that 72 of its officers, including a serving Colonel and three Lt Colonels, posted in sensitive border districts of Rajasthan and in the Indian Army Training Team (IMTRAT) at Bhutan were part of an illegal arms selling racket.

The admission came in a status report submitted to the SC through additional solicitor general Vivek Tankha after a PIL petitioner advocate Arvind Kumar Sharma cried himself hoarse for three years and after the Supreme Court pressed for a probe into the hair-raising racket.

Weapons procured and sold off in violation of the Army Act and Customs Act to arms dealers and private persons included both prohibited and non-prohibited bore and "a total of 72 officers and one JCO were blameworthy" in these cases, the Army said quoting a report submitted by the Court of Inquiry two years ago.

Significantly, in the affidavit submitted before a Bench comprising Justices B Sudershan Reddy and S S Nijjar, the Army authorities put the gross violation to the ignorance of its personnel. It said that its officers posted at IMTRAT, Bhutan, wrongly felt that it was alright for them to import firearms and ammunition and sell them at a profit. "This needs to be corrected immediately," it said.

It gave the names of the Colonel and 3 Lt Cols along with the number of weapons traded by them -- Col Neeraj Rana (5 weapons of Army officers), Lt Col V S Rathore (17 weapons of Army officers including his weapon), Lt Col S S Rathore (5 weapons of Army officers including his own) and Lt Col B S Shekhawat (11 weapons of Army officers).

While clarifying that most of the weapons illegally traded off were not service ones but non-service patterns (NSPs), the Army said: "Forty-five officers and one JCO had sold their NSP weapons without taking sanction of competent authority in violation of SAO 1/S/96 and the Arms Act, 1959. Of these, 10 officers have since retired."

"Twenty-five officers who were posted at IMTRAT, Bhutan, were found to have imported ammunition in excess of their authorization," the status report said and detailed the disciplinary action taken against them.

Shockingly, of the 35 serving officers, one JCO and 10 retired officers who were asked by the authorities to deposit back their NSPs with the Central Ordnance Depot, Jabalpur, within three months, only four officers have been able to retrieve their weapons and deposit the same with COD Jabalpur and Chandigarh.

While disciplinary action was initiated against four who deposited back their weapons after retrieving them from arms dealers, the rest of the weapons appear to have been lost in circulation.

"Regarding 31 officers and a JCO who had sold their NSPs without sanction and failed to deposit them back with COD, these personnel are serving in various parts of the country. Their attachment orders have been issued by competent authority on August 31, 2010 with the instructions to report to the concerned formation headquarters and units forthwith. On arrival of these officers, disciplinary action will commence against them under the Army Act and Army Rules," the affidavit by the Army promised to the SC.

During the last hearing on the PIL filed by Sharma highlighting the dangerous consequences of such illegal transactions involving arms and ammunition, the Bench had said: "These are such serious allegations. We never expected such things to happen."

What had pained the court was the Centre's inaction to curb such incidents despite the Rajasthan government lodging 14 FIRs. The Bench on Friday also asked the state government to furnish an inquiry report prepared by inspector-general Umesh Mishra of the state Anti-Corruption Branch giving details of the transactions. The report dated July 15, 2007 would be submitted in a sealed cover.