Indians For Guns

Well very recently we had some experts calling the Indian army chaps as sloppy shots.. Well here is some reality check!

Indian Army stood first in Rifle Competition [With INSAS].
And stood second in Pistol competition.

Others in the competition -
Armenia, Austria, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, China, France, Spain, Italy, Finland,Belarus, Belgium, Brazil, Brunei, Cambodia, Croatia,Cyprus , El Salvador ,Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, South Korea,Estonia, Fiji,Germany, Greece, Ghana, Guatemala,Hungary, Ireland,Kenya,Mexico, Nepal, Nigeria,Qatar, Serbia,Slovenia, Seirra Leone,Tanzania and Macedonia.

The 15 Punjab Infantry Battalion serving in the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) has won the inter battalion battle physical efficiency test cum shooting competition.

The event involved an endurance run of 5.4 km with firearm and ammunition followed by a sprint run from the point of 100 metres to a firing point and then shooting at targets from a 100 metre range.

Given that our boys won first place with the much abused INSAS against the likes of Germany, France, South Korea, China, Austria, Finland, Belgium etc using their 'state of art' assault rifles, I hope that it will help readers realize 'politics' from truth...

http://zeenews.india.com/sports/others/ ... 00683.html

Yaaaayyyyy....awesome[emoji22][emoji22][emoji22][emoji108][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

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To quote from the zee news link:

- Competition was held in the yr 2007 at Jerusalem orgainzed by Col. Advitya Madan, commanding officer of the Indian contingent serving in the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL.

- the 15 Punjab Infantry Battalion ) won the inter battalion battle physical efficiency test cum shooting competition.

- Participating Battalions where from Poland, Spain, Malaysia, Indonesia and Nepal.

- Col. Advitya Madan had detailed Capt. Sarfraz Singh Sanghera, an ace pistol shooter from the unit, to hone the firing skills of the team.
Sanghera is also a member of the Indian Army's elite Army Marksmanship Unit.
- As per news it was a systematic training regimen for the participants.

Its high time chest thumping is stopped.. to quote Lt.Gen H.S.Panag "The army as an institution has been accorded a halo-that it can do nothing wrong and nobody should criticise it. This is the worst that could happen to an army. It prevents the army from undertaking reforms which are always necessary for the betterment of any organisation"

Cheers
Biren

nitroex700 wrote:some experts calling the Indian army chaps as sloppy shots
.....
shooting at targets from a 100 metre range.

Here we go again.

I think the good General & the experts were talking about ranges well beyond 100m.
The poorly built INSAS is damn accurate in op range, have no doubt. That's one reason it's still alive, only to be offset by more reasons that currently puts it for replacement.

And then there's the 2007 part but much shouldn't be read into it since we still put accuracy up top on priority. But then that's barely at ranges beyond what an SVD demands & that clearly isn't saying much about sniping.

The keyword here is Sniper, not Marksman or any grade below that. We just don't make enough original material on that even with 1.2 billion going around, even after the training. This is no Army's fault, neither was anyone blaming them. Also they were not well integrated into the doctrine so far but that's changing now seeing bolt-actions back on the shopping list. Not every sector is eyeball-eyeball & a lot could be gained in fielding more snipers alongside.

nitroex700 wrote:Well very recently we had some experts calling the Indian army chaps as sloppy shots.. Well here is some reality check!

While I would not be repeating to respond to the above comment as well as the post because it has been already answered by other members, posting here the link of the relevant thread, so the readers who are not aware of that discussion may read that thread and make an informed conclusion viewtopic.php?f=44&t=25196

At the cost of beating a dead horse,

a) The above competition, more than anything else demonstrates our Army soldiers ability in terms of stamina, that was never something anyone ever questioned or doubts.

b) The point raised was about "sniper skills", 100m meter shooting doesn't even begin to qualify as far as sniper marksmanship skills are concerned. Anyone who has ever shot at long ranges (lets keep it simple and define long for this discussion as 300+ meters, though ideally we should be talking 1,000m) will be able to testify as to how the difficulty exponentially goes up as the shooting range increases.

While the rank and file are well served with shooting skills out to 100m, specialist roles like snipers are not.

Just to give perspective, for anyone who has not tried it before, I would strongly suggest shooting the same centerfire rifle (for groups) at - 50m, 100m, 150m, 300m and if at all possible at ranges beyond 300m (I realise longer shooting ranges are scarce in India, so may not be possible). When you analyze your groups, shot from the same rifle, using the same ammo, at these different ranges - you will (hopefully) begin to realise why a sniper is such a specialised role.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

@Mundaire: The Indian Army trains to dominate and excels in all its areas of operation... Our current areas of operation require counter insurgency and border outpost defense most of the time.. So that is what we train for and excel in at different levels of the organization.

Sniping is a specialized course and has large elements of jungle/desert warfare and special operations tactics besides shooting. We are among the very best in each of these, so much so that we train special forces instructors from across the world in our training schools.

Our levels of competence in whatever we do are at par with the best given our consistence performance in international competitions. As I said previously, our boys have dominated the enemies with their fancy guns every time it has come to a fight.. We train to win and win we do... Just because one general goes the political way it doesn't mean the whole Fauj has to become a bunch of clowns...

nitroex700 wrote:As I said previously, our boys have dominated the enemies with their fancy guns every time it has come to a fight.. We train to win and win we do... Just because one general goes the political way it doesn't mean the whole Fauj has to become a bunch of clowns...

Nitroex700 as said earlier what you are saying or trying to convince is not the topic of discussion. Anyways since you are repeating the same thing again and again, I can either close my eyes to neutrality, objectivity and start agreeing to you for the sake of agreeing or in interest of neutrality and objectivity of discussion take a different stand. Since you are somehow trying to convince that our boys are "dominating" the enemies "every time", let me remind you our boys did not dominate or win every time.

In 1962 it was nothing but a complete defeat, so no question of domination. In 1965 a looming defeat was converted into direction of victory due to blunt refusal by a Lt. Gen. to retreat, as advised by the Chief of Army(you may read more here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25103#p248268). In 1970 though it was technically a victory but if the odds had been similar, the results might have been different. In the last Kargil skirmish, a senior rank officer was saying it can take over an year to dislodge the intruders. It was only after back door diplomacy by our politicians resulting in arm twisting by one super power that the intruders agreed to withdraw. Army lacked training and mind set for war, was a major observation noted by the 1999 Kargil war committee. In a manner you perceive a retd. general has gone political way, 1999 Kargil war committee must had also gone the political way!

By the way, on the western front nobody is dominating anybody. Instead only tit for tat is going on and other business of cross border movements also appears happening as usual. And on the northern front, the northern neighbor's troops are dominating in every manner and walking in and walking out of this country's territory as if they are coming for a stroll in the park. Recently there were news reports that pair of it's military helicopters roamed inside a district of the state of Uttarakhand for around five minutes.

Well GBM, I could tell you about bigger screw ups which have been repeated successively by 'super powers' like US & Russia... I could also remind how India literally tore Pakistan into two in '71 and has made their lives hell from the top of Saltoro Ridge in Siachen where they literally 'beg' us to 'demilitarize' (So they can play their famous 'crawl under the fence' sport again..)...

I could also tell you how India virtually 'slaughtered' the Chinese when they attempted the same thing again few years after '62 (which you probably don't know about..).. I could tell you how the Indian army was prevented from capturing Lahore in '65 by our own leadership.. I could tell you how about two decades later after '71, we almost captured Sialkot and were again called back...

I could also tell you how India has 'killed' some 850 (1 battalion approx) odd soldiers of theirs in the last one year itself and how it is called 'total domination' of the enemy according to most military standards... But since you only seem to know how to post anti-India rhetoric from disreputable media sources and eulogize the enemy, I will leave you with these facts to munch on and post and even bigger rhetoric on how you need to post lengthy rhetoric to feel good about yourself.

nitroex700, there is a difference between facts and fiction, relevant and irrelevant. Relevant facts are in the public domain and not like your some imaginary super secret sources or propaganda. Henderson Brooks report about 1962 defeat is in the public domain on the internet, even though that is still officially "top secret". Many pages from it are still kept missing, why? Henderson Brooks report or Kargil war committee is not something as you would like to call or believe as "disreputable media sources". Similarly orders for retreat in 1965 are no secret, similarly many other facts are in the public domain. When dealing with any matter objectively with neutrality, you do not need the clutches of so called "patriotism". It is rightly said patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels. Let us leave the clutches of "patriotism" for the scoundrels.

"virtual slaughter" means nothing when the opposite side is making real ingress and trespass at will and pleasure anytime. While it is true that Indian army had reached outskirts of Lahore in 1965, it is not politicians who prevented capture of Lahore. Capturing Lahore was never the military objective. Politicians were not fools nor the Generals advising them were fools. It was the practical wisdom that prevented them from entering into a death trap of urban warfare and prolonging the warfare. If you study the warfare doctrines of this country, they are based on short and "intense" warfare and not the prolonged and tiresome warfare. Similarly the much hyped cold start doctrine is based on this short and intense warfare doctrine.

It appears you are obsessed with "domination". For your information, domination is domination and matter of pride only when you dominate someone of equal or more strength to submit to your will. When you dominate someone less than your strength then it is not called domination but it is called bullying.

In the western sector even though the opposite party is not even of equal strength, still there is not an iota of evidence of any domination whatsoever. The "business" of tit for tat is continuing as usual. In the northern sector where the opposite party is stronger, even the mirage of domination is beyond any stretch of imagination.

GBM I have given you enough 'facts and figures' to play with, pls take your time to check their authenticity with your 'public domain' resources..

That said, carry on, have fun, enjoy yourself. I'm out of here, since I don't really enjoy fighting people over the Internet. Hurting my enemies by making them read 10,000 word theses is not my style of revenge....

nitroex700, substituting facts with fiction and pumping dose of so called patriotism to emotionalize the matters, is not my style of discussion and debate. Whether to be "out of here" or not "out of here" is your personal decision. Perceiving those having different point of view based on facts and truth as "enemies" or seeking "revenge" itself speaks volumes about the kind of opinions you prefer to choose. Anyways I do respect your human right to have different views no matter how much they deviate from facts.