Indians For Guns

After 20 years, INSAS rifles to be retired, Indian Army to get ‘deadlier’ foreign alternative
After nearly 20 years, indigenous manufactured INSAS rifles will be finally 'retiring' from the army and replaced by an imported assault rifle which will be manufactured in the country later.
By: PTI | New Delhi | Updated: March 5, 2017 5:57 PM

After nearly 20 years, indigenous manufactured INSAS rifles will be finally ‘retiring’ from the army and replaced by an imported assault rifle which will be manufactured in the country later. The Indian Small Arms System (INSAS), which was inducted in the army 1988, is likely to be replaced with deadlier assault rifles of higher caliber (7.62×51), official sources said.

The sources said that as many as 18 vendors, including some Indian companies having a tie-up with a foreign arms manufacturing firm, have sent in their consent to replace nearly two lakh such rifles used by the army along the borders and in counter-insurgency operations.

The reason for phasing out of INSAS, as cited by experts, was that it was not effective at long range and at best, it could only maim the enemy.

The sources said that 7.62×51 assault rifles have already been introduced in the Pakistani army which purchased them from Heckler and Koch, one of the world’s leading small arms manufacturers based in Germany.

The proposal for procuring the new assault rifles was in pre-Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) stage and expected to be completed by the year end after putting the process of purchase of these weapons on a fast track.

Woods wrote:The reason for phasing out of INSAS, as cited by experts, was that it was not effective at long range and at best, it could only maim the enemy.

mundaire wrote:

Woods wrote:The reason for phasing out of INSAS, as cited by experts, was that it was not effective at long range and at best, it could only maim the enemy.

That's really funny, as IIRC when the INSAS was introduced, one of the reasons touted for the choice of 5.56 cartridge was that it would maim and not kill the enemy. The logic put forward was that this (more wounded) would tie up enemy resources.

Why isn't anyone talking about the REAL REASON, which is piss poor quality of manufacture, the fault of which lies completely with the Indian Ordnance Factory Board (IOFB).

First we spend a ton of money to replace the 7.62x51 SLR rifles with the 5.56 INSAS, and now we are told that we will be spending more money in replacing the 5.56 INSAS with (I'm guessing) the 7.62 once again?!

Also the Heckler & Koch 7.62x51 rifles have been in use with the Pakistani forces for DECADES, introduced by them around the same time/ soon after we introduced the SLR in the same calibre... which was post the 1962 Indo-China war débâcle. Unless I'm mistaken the H&K G3 has been license manufactured by Pakistan Ordnance Factories for many years now.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

StampMaster wrote:and not to forget something in our DNA, SCAMS.

Woods wrote:But let me say this much -- I am a Christian .

Woods wrote:Remember it were English Christians and not Hindus who confiscated guns from us Indians .

essdee1972 wrote:For the Brit-bashers, a bit of family history - my Grandfather's guns were not taken away by the Brits, even when his oldest son (my uncle - Tauji) was arrested, tried and convicted for sedition (i.e. fighting for freedom), terrorist acts (looting a army pay truck), and fortunately killing a army employee on duty (the guard of the said pay truck) was not proved, hence he escaped being hanged! These guns were finally confiscated by the Indian govt, when he was crossing the border post Partition. The Pakistani govt let him walk (or sail rather) out with his guns, the Indian govt stopped him, hence losing our family heirlooms!!!

Woods wrote:And it were moslem invaders( utterly guided by religious commands) who dilapidated this country and it's institutions before the advent of English .

Woods wrote:There is no Hindu God who doesn't bear arms .

Woods wrote:How come this country reduced to a quagmire where even .22 airguns are to be outlawed .

[1:] Assuming that Chaturvarnya is practicable, I contend that it is the most vicious system. That the Brahmins should cultivate knowledge, that the Kshatriya should bear arms, that the Vaishya should trade, and that the Shudra should serve, sounds as though it was a system of division of labour. Whether the theory was intended to state that the Shudra need not, or whether it was intended to lay down that he must not, is an interesting question. The defenders of Chaturvarnya give it the first meaning. They say, why need the Shudra trouble to acquire wealth, when the three [higher] Varnas are there to support him? Why need the Shudra bother to take to education, when there is the Brahmin to whom he can go when the occasion for reading or writing arises? Why need the Shudra worry to arm himself, when there is the Kshatriya to protect him? The theory of Chaturvarnya, understood in this sense, may be said to look upon the Shudra as the ward and the three [higher] Varnas as his guardians. Thus interpreted, it is a simple, elevating, and alluring theory.

[2:] Assuming this to be the correct view of the underlying conception of Chaturvarnya, it seems to me that the system is neither fool-proof nor knave-proof. What is to happen if the Brahmins, Vaishyas, and Kshatriyas fail to pursue knowledge, to engage in economic enterprise, and to be efficient soldiers, which are their respective functions? Contrary-wise, suppose that they discharge their functions, but flout their duty to the Shudra or to one another; what is to happen to the Shudra if the three classes refuse to support him on fair terms, or combine to keep him down? Who is to safeguard the interests of the Shudra—or for that matter, those of the Vaishya and Kshatriya—when the person who is trying to take advantage of his ignorance is the Brahmin? Who is to defend the liberty of the Shudra—and for that matter, of the Brahmin and the Vaishya—when the person who is robbing him of it is the Kshatriya?

[3:] Inter-dependence of one class on another class is inevitable. Even dependence of one class upon another may sometimes become allowable. But why make one person depend upon another in the matter of his vital needs? Education, everyone must have. Means of defence, everyone must have. These are the paramount requirements of every man for his self-preservation. How can the fact that his neighbour is educated and armed help a man who is uneducated and disarmed? The whole theory is absurd. These are the questions which the defenders of Chaturvarnya do not seem to be troubled about. But they are very pertinent questions. Assuming that in their conception of Chaturvarnya the relationship between the different classes is that of ward and guardian, and that this is the real conception underlying Chaturvarnya, it must be admitted that it makes no provision to safeguard the interests of the ward from the misdeeds of the guardian.

[4:] Whether or not the relationship of guardian and ward was the real underlying conception on which Chaturvarnya was based, there is no doubt that in practice the relation was that of master and servants. The three classes, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas, although not very happy in their mutual relationship, managed to work by compromise. The Brahmin flattered the Kshatriya, and both let the Vaishya live in order to be able to live upon him. But the three agreed to beat down the Shudra. He was not allowed to acquire wealth, lest he should be independent of the three [higher] Varnas. He was prohibited from acquiring knowledge, lest he should keep a steady vigil regarding his interests. He was prohibited from bearing arms, lest he should have the means to rebel against their authority. That this is how the Shudras were treated by the Tryavarnikas is evidenced by the Laws of Manu. There is no code of laws more infamous regarding social rights than the Laws of Manu. Any instance from anywhere of social injustice must pale before it.

[5:] Why have the mass of people tolerated the social evils to which they have been subjected? There have been social revolutions in other countries of the world. Why have there not been social revolutions in India, is a question which has incessantly troubled me. There is only one answer which I can give, and it is that the lower classes of Hindus have been completely disabled for direct action on account of this wretched Caste System. They could not bear arms, and without arms they could not rebel. They were all ploughmen—or rather, condemned to be ploughmen—and they never were allowed to convert their ploughshares into swords. They had no bayonets, and therefore everyone who chose, could and did sit upon them. On account of the Caste System, they could receive no education. They could not think out or know the way to their salvation. They were condemned to be lowly; and not knowing the way of escape, and not having the means of escape, they became reconciled to eternal servitude, which they accepted as their inescapable fate.

[6:] It is true that even in Europe the strong has not shrunk from the exploitation—nay, the spoliation—of the weak. But in Europe, the strong have never contrived to make the weak helpless against exploitation so shamelessly as was the case in India among the Hindus. Social war has been raging between the strong and the weak far more violently in Europe than it has ever been in India. Yet the weak in Europe has had in his freedom of military service, his physical weapon; in suffering, his political weapon; and in education, his moral weapon. These three weapons for emancipation were never withheld by the strong from the weak in Europe. All these weapons were, however, denied to the masses in India by the Caste System.

Woods wrote:And , lastly , there are some public groups who have shown a definite tendancy towards violence if they get the gun . Consider latest mass-murders in US or worldwide , someone is always the other side ( I am not naming anyone) .

Woods wrote:We are to evolve as a civilized society again .

Woods wrote:And yes , corruption being so deep rooted , only technology will cure us .

Woods wrote:Some miraculous craftsman are lurking around .