French to dump the FAMAS?

[xl_target]

It looks like the French are looking to phase out their FAMAS Assault rifle. In service since 1971, "The Bugle", is aging and due for replacement.


FAMAS rifle
It will be interesting to see what follows it.


A recent open procurement for a replacement has been announced
http://www.boamp.fr/avis/detail/14-70321/0
It looks like they will be staying with the 5.56 X 45 round.
They are looking for a total of 90,000 rifles of which half will be a carbine of some sort.

The requirement is for the following estimated quantities, given as an indication: - of the order of 45 000 Individual Weapons Futures standard; - Approximately 45,000 Individual Weapons Futures short version; - About 38 million rounds of 5.56 x 45 mm exercise; - Approximately 51,000 grenades 40 x 46 mm anti-personnel/anti-véhicule low speed, 13,000 grenades 40 x 46 mm low speed smoke, 28,000 grenades 40 x 46 mm low speed exercise; The quantities associated with other services (accessories, system support elements necessary to state qualification?) Will be specified in the consultation documents

The above was translated using Google Translate

I suppose HK (HK 416) and FN (SCAR, FS2000) will be bidders. Both the SCAR and the HK416 have been seen in service with French troops.
Who else will bid? Maybe Beretta (ARX 160) and Steyr (AUG)? There is also an outside chance that Colt may be a bidder but it's unlikely that they will go with a bog standard M16/M4 type weapon. I'm betting on a piston operated M4 clone of some kind.

Being that they are used to using a bullpup, maybe something like the Steyr AUG or the Tavor would be more favored?

Contenders:

FN FS2000


FN SCAR Mk 16


HK416


Steyr AUG


Beretta ARX160


Tavor


SIG 556

[TC]

That's sad news XL !
Have been a fan of the Styr AUG and the FA MAS for years.
If I am not wrong the FA MAS was first made in 1973 and after several modifications went into production in 1979. But the manufacturer, Armes de St. Etienne, took almost four years to deliver the first batch 1,50,000 rifles. But then on it remained in continuous production. It certainly is a well made bull-pup design with some nice features.
During very cold weather, when soldiers are likely to wear thick gloves, the trigger guard can be rotated forward ! Isn't t that a cool feature for cold weather. The ejection port can be rotated to the left side as well- a feature the British IW standard rifle, which came out almost at the same time and also a bull-pup, did not have and thus caused terrible inconvenience for soldiers patrolling streets in Ireland in the 70s. It was impossible to fire the rifle with the left hand from behind cover without having some hot brass on the face. The British also had to junk the 4.85 mm round the IW (Individual Weapon i.e.) first came in. The FA MAS was way ahead in these departments.

TC

[farook]

i would vote for this one, with varying barrel lengths of course. It would ideal for any army to stay with one manufacture...love it when he says Go out and get one..




There is the lot...

[xl_target]

TC, The St Etienne factory is shuttered, indefinitely.

[TC]

TC, The St Etienne factory is shuttered, indefinitely.

XL, that's bad news. It was a good plant. Wonder where all the employees went.

TC

[Hammerhead]

I don't see white flags

Canada is banning Swis Arms , they can have 'em all.


Go for Steyer

[xl_target]

Haji,
I'd be willing to bet that its a tossup between the HK416 and the SCAR unless they are very specific about a bullpup.
All the other systems I mentioned have been around for a while and are starting to look dated.
The problem with the Steyr AUG is that it was waaaay ahead of its time and now it's been in service for a while. However, I have never heard any complaints from its users about reliability.
I don't think SIG stands much of a chance. They are heavy and expensive. Both the 416 and the SCAR have been battle proven, at least in a limited way.

After shooting the SCAR and the TAVOR back to back, I'd take the TAVOR any frickin' day. My group sizes with the TAVOR were half that of my group sizes shooting the SCAR, standing offhand, at 50 yards. Felt recoil and controllability were better with the TAVOR. However, that only reflects my personal preference based on a one time use.

If I, personally, had to choose an assault rifle to go into battle with today; it would be an AR-15 followed by a TAVOR. The main reason is that I am more familiar with the AR and have used it more, over the years, than the TAVOR.
I am also intimately familiar with the innards of the AR and have confidence in its reliability. I also have confidence that I can get it running again if it has a stoppage.

[farook]

Was wondering how they missed out this one





http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/p ... 6-mk3.html

[xl_target]

Was wondering how they missed out this one





http://www.fnherstal.com/primary-menu/p ... 6-mk3.html

The Minimi is not an Assault Rifle, it is a Light Machine gun.

[xl_target]

That's sad news XL !
Have been a fan of the Styr AUG and the FA MAS for years.
............. It certainly is a well made bull-pup design with some nice features.
During very cold weather, when soldiers are likely to wear thick gloves, the trigger guard can be rotated forward ! Isn't t that a cool feature for cold weather. The ejection port can be rotated to the left side as well- a feature the British IW standard rifle, which came out almost at the same time and also a bull-pup, did not have and thus caused terrible inconvenience for soldiers patrolling streets in Ireland in the 70s. It was impossible to fire the rifle with the left hand from behind cover without having some hot brass on the face. The British also had to junk the 4.85 mm round the IW (Individual Weapon i.e.) first came in. The FA MAS was way ahead in these departments.

TC

IF they do start phasing the FAMAS out, maybe we can get some of them in kit form (in the US).
We would just need someone to make the receivers and barrels which shouldn't be such a big deal anymore.
I'm sure someone like Dan Coonan's outfit, who also makes FAL receivers, will pick up the slack.

[timmy]

I hate to be the one to say it, XL, but the FAMAS is undoubtedly one of the ugliest things in the field of firearms.

True, that doesn't affect its utility, but still: That thing is homely!

[xl_target]

I hate to be the one to say it, XL, but the FAMAS is undoubtedly one of the ugliest things in the field of firearms.

True, that doesn't affect its utility, but still: That thing is homely!

My apologies to TC but I've gotta agree with you, Tim.
The funny thing is that I've never heard much bad about it. Come to think of it, I've never heard very much about how it performs in the field.

Shortly after typing the above, I googled FAMAS performance and ....Aiyiyii, found the following:

The French FAMAS rifle has been a disaster. Its delayed blowback action is powerful enough to rip apart regular NATO brass-cased 5.56x45mm cases and its rifling does not stabilize the modern 5.56mm NATO bullets. The French Army is forced to use steel cased 5.56mm ammunition, thus eliminating the advantages of using the same cartridge as their NATO and EU allies. It that was not bad enough, the ammunition is no longer made in France and has ben to imported. A French journalist told me that China manufactures steel-cased 5.56mm for French military (I will say that another French journalist I spoke to disputes that ammunition is imported from China).

The manufacturer of the FAMAS, the state-owned Manufacture d’Armes de Saint-Etienne (MAS), has been developing firearms since 1777 and is well known for developing the first smokeless power military rifle, the Lebel Model 1886. Sadly this organization no longer has the technical capability to develop a new rifle, which is why France is looking beyond her borders for a new rifle.

- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... HbHGk.dpuf

[timmy]

I saw that the Wiki had mentioned the same problem, XL. I read that this FAMAS was a lever-delayed blowback. I wonder: The CETME design (roller-blowback) was supposed to have used grooving in the chamber to allow gas pressure to keep the cartridge from sticking to the chamber walls.

I don't see why the design wouldn't work with the proper amount of development, and I'm supposing that this is what was lacking.

I have always liked the AUG. It is a bull pup, too, but to my eye is a very attractive rifle -- unlike this eyesore!

One thing about this FAMAS: I don't think it could ever be imported. You know how the anti-gunners feel about the clear and present danger to society posed by bayonets!

This upside down bayonet would certainly look evil to these nitwits, and they must certainly attribute extremely sinister properties to an upside down bayonet! Don't you think?

You really have to wonder about the notions some folks have.

[xl_target]

I saw that the Wiki had mentioned the same problem, XL. I read that this FAMAS was a lever-delayed blowback. I wonder: The CETME design (roller-blowback) was supposed to have used grooving in the chamber to allow gas pressure to keep the cartridge from sticking to the chamber walls.

I don't see why the design wouldn't work with the proper amount of development, and I'm supposing that this is what was lacking.

I have always liked the AUG. It is a bull pup, too, but to my eye is a very attractive rifle -- unlike this eyesore!

One thing about this FAMAS: I don't think it could ever be imported. You know how the anti-gunners feel about the clear and present danger to society posed by bayonets!

This upside down bayonet would certainly look evil to these nitwits, and they must certainly attribute extremely sinister properties to an upside down bayonet! Don't you think?

You really have to wonder about the notions some folks have.

I believe the FAMAS has a grooved chamber too.

[TC]

The French FAMAS rifle has been a disaster. Its delayed blowback action is powerful enough to rip apart regular NATO brass-cased 5.56x45mm cases and its rifling does not stabilize the modern 5.56mm NATO bullets. The French Army is forced to use steel cased 5.56mm ammunition, thus eliminating the advantages of using the same cartridge as their NATO and EU allies. It that was not bad enough, the ammunition is no longer made in France and has ben to imported. A French journalist told me that China manufactures steel-cased 5.56mm for French military (I will say that another French journalist I spoke to disputes that ammunition is imported from China).

The manufacturer of the FAMAS, the state-owned Manufacture d’Armes de Saint-Etienne (MAS), has been developing firearms since 1777 and is well known for developing the first smokeless power military rifle, the Lebel Model 1886. Sadly this organization no longer has the technical capability to develop a new rifle, which is why France is looking beyond her borders for a new rifle.

- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... HbHGk.dpuf

Now that's a new input. Seems MAS was headed the Ishapore way

Timmy I do agree with you on the ugly looks of the FA MAS. And also that the AUG is a great looker .... and performer too.
But the FA MAS did serve in the First Iraq War and I don't remember reading any adverse field report. It is possible that the rifle had gone through enough modifications by then ? May be you and XL could shed some light on that.

Cheers
TC