Indians For Guns

Hello friends,

Some time back I had created a blog with an idea to comment on firearms shown in Bollywood movies. Finally I wrote first post on it after watching Madras Cafe. It is a nice movie about turbulent times in Indian sub-continent. Here is the link to my article - http://bollywood-weapons.blogspot.in/20 ... -cafe.html

Do share your valuable suggestions.

Regards,

Zombie

At the end of the day, it's movie. And again, Bollywood producers are not known for their historical accuracy. Which brings me to two conclusions. One, the film business in Bombay is not about detail and historical melodrama, but rather a 'formula' to enrich their revenues. They know very well that they have a license to engage in such inaccuracies because probably 99% of viewers cannot identify one weapon from another. Two, there may be a genuine paucity of such weapon look alikes for them to shoot with. So they will lay their hands on just about anything to carry the story line forward.

If one were to see movies from the 70's, whence there is a surge of violence in the story lines compared to the earlier two decades of films, one would notice that most scenes with firearms are depicted with genuine pieces. However, post the 80's mushy romantic spreads, films depicted handguns of the 'blank firing' variety which have no correlation with firearms in the country at that time, and in fact, this trend continues to date.

Their initial weapons included SLR. A number of SLR were also captured during clashes with Indian Army. In one of the scenes, Anna is shown using a AR-15/M-16 family weapon with a scope. This looks far fetched as M-16 is not popular for its performance in jungle and desert terrain. Moreover M-16 would require expensive ammunition and maintenance to keep it in fighting order. AK family is preferred world over by 'freedom fighters' engaged in guerrilla warfare and terrorists alike. Primary reason for its popularity is virtually no maintenance requirement, easy availability of ammunition and rugged build quality.

Your information is quite some years outdated. The M-16/M-4/AR-15 rifles of today are perfectly reliable. Just ask hundreds of thousands of US soldiers who have been using them in the middle east and Afghanistan since the first Gulf War. Most of the problems with the M16 were fixed by the end of the Vietnam war. There is no denying that AK's can take a lot of abuse but to praise their build quality is maybe going a little far. Bent sheet metal and rivets, while functional is pretty low tech. My garden shovel has rugged build quality and it is made of bent sheet metal and has rivets.

Don't get me wrong, AK's can be reliable and are a perfectly viable weapon but then so is my garden shovel. AK were built for illiterate conscripts to use with little training and work quite well in that role but that doesn't mean that the M16/AR15 doesn't work well. To say that an M16/M4/AR15 won't work in a jungle environment is ignorant. The mechanism itself is pretty simple and rugged but to manufacture it takes machine tools. When we talk build quality, there is no comparison between the two. I don't have a horse in this fight as I personally don't own either rifle but I have used both of them.

Katana,

Coincidentally, I saw 'Joshilay' today released in 1989 and apart from 2 beautiful indigenous horses the movie had some authentic rifles..Sunny Deol carries an under lever 30.30 (I think) while Anil kapoor carries a bolt action- couldn't guess which one. Though you are right, somehow the handguns did not match up to the other firearms shown in the movie.

Betaab too has some authentic rifles iiirc. And of course Sunny Deol's buckskin Marwari or kathiawadi horse that I've loved in his movies.

The heart sinks at the sight of the firearms and the irresponsible manner in which they are handled in the Bollywood movies today.

Regards,
SS

To the mass who view Bollywood Movies 'Their ignorance is Bliss" to the movie makers
For them anything remotely resembling a firearm that makes a bang or rat - a - tat - tat is good enough & convincing, especially when the falling victim is splattered with a liberal dose of 'Ketchup' all over his chest and lays motionless - followed by the nonchalent look on the hero's face while he blows off the smoke from the barrel

In comparison the western movie goer - atleast 80% of them have served in the armed forces, thanks to their 'drafting system' & know their guns - Obviously the movie makers there can't pull wool over their eyes - hence authenicity becomes mandatory there
Briha

xl_target wrote: Your information is quite some years outdated. The M-16/M-4/AR-15 rifles of today are perfectly reliable. Just ask hundreds of thousands of US soldiers who have been using them in the middle east and Afghanistan since the first Gulf War. Most of the problems with the M16 were fixed by the end of the Vietnam war. There is no denying that AK's can take a lot of abuse but to praise their build quality is maybe going a little far. Bent sheet metal and rivets, while functional is pretty low tech. My garden shovel has rugged build quality and it is made of bent sheet metal and has rivets.

Don't get me wrong, AK's can be reliable and are a perfectly viable weapon but then so is my garden shovel. AK were built for illiterate conscripts to use with little training and work quite well in that role but that doesn't mean that the M16/AR15 doesn't work well. To say that an M16/M4/AR15 won't work in a jungle environment is ignorant. The mechanism itself is pretty simple and rugged but to manufacture it takes machine tools. When we talk build quality, there is no comparison between the two. I don't have a horse in this fight as I personally don't own either rifle but I have used both of them.

Dear xl_target,

I understand your point. But I was talking in context of 80s. Moreover as you said it, AK was built for conscripts and that suited LTTE just fine. Using M-16 for their ground troops wouldn't make sense due to different ammunition requirements and regular cleaning/maintenance required to keep it operational. My post was keeping realities of those times in mind. Of course situation is pretty different these days.

Didn't the LTTE/TF use double barrelled shotguns with infinite magazine capacity? Oops sorry, it was the dakoos of Chambal who used them!!

A very well written post, Zombie!! Why don't you review zombie movies (sorry to pun on your handle!!)? Go-Goa-Gone showed a novice firing what looked like a Desert Eagle without the least evidence of recoil!

Hi zombie,

I have just had the extreme pleasure of trying out, on full auto, both the AK47 and a silenced version of the M16, within minutes of each other, at the Ahlman's Shooters Roundup, show in MN, USA. They are both amazing, awesome weapons and I enjoyed shooting them both. All I can say from a short 20 Round Magazine experience is (IMHO), I found the M16 to be the more refined beast; as XL likes to put it - a Cadillac!

You can soon see images, write-ups and videos at this IFG Post

http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... ead#unread

Hi Ckkalyan,

There are no doubts that M-16 is more refined of the two. But ruggedness and ease of use is what makes AK-47 a favourite of guerrillas across the globe.

Will surely look up your posts.

Regards,

Zombie

essdee1972 wrote:Didn't the LTTE/TF use double barrelled shotguns with infinite magazine capacity? Oops sorry, it was the dakoos of Chambal who used them!!

A very well written post, Zombie!! Why don't you review zombie movies (sorry to pun on your handle!!)? Go-Goa-Gone showed a novice firing what looked like a Desert Eagle without the least evidence of recoil!

Would love to write about lot of other Bollywood movies, but the problem is I need to find enough time to sit through movies and write it. Need to adjust it in my schedule, but will definitely try.

Regards,

Zombie

zombie wrote:Hi Ckkalyan,

There are no doubts that M-16 is more refined of the two. But ruggedness and ease of use is what makes AK-47 a favourite of guerrillas across the globe.

Will surely look up your posts.

Regards,

Zombie

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but both weapons systems are rugged and are easy to use (except that you can usually hit the broadside of a barn, from the inside of it, with the M16).

The reason that there is such a preponderance of AK47's all over the globe is very simple. It is that the Russians and the Chinese, during the cold war, handed out AK47's and ammo to anyone who had a flag with even just a hint of red in it. Back then, unlike today's "Jihad", the catchword of every rebellion or uprising was usually "communism". Often this was just to assure a supply of weapons. Later during the Soviet's debacle in Afghanistan, even the Americans got into the act and handed out AK47's (deniability?) along with other weapons systems to the Mujahideen. There is an estimated 100 Million AK47's out there but that estimate could just be like the infamous estimated "40 million weapons in India".

This looks far fetched as M-16 is not popular for its performance in jungle and desert terrain. Moreover M-16 would require expensive ammunition and maintenance to keep it in fighting order. AK family is preferred world over by 'freedom fighters' engaged in guerrilla warfare and terrorists alike. Primary reason for its popularity is virtually no maintenance requirement, easy availability of ammunition and rugged build quality.

Why do you think that the M16 is not "popular for its performance" in the desert and the jungle? I have spoken to people who have used them in "the sandbox". One, a two tour Marine, even faced heavy fighting with his M4 in Fallujah and said he didn't have any issues with it.
In this context, why do you think the M16 uses ammunition that is much more available than what the AK47 uses? In a country that makes no ammunition, it would all have to be brought in from outside so what difference does it make where it comes from? Did some of the LTTE's ammo come from India?
As far as maintenance, do you know that there isn't much difference in the speed at which the M16 field strips compared to the AK47? In fact, I would give the edge to M16.

I am just trying to correct the misconception, that you seem to advocate, that the M16 is somehow an inferior weapon to the AK47.

heck man, you do not know what you are saying. M16 is respected weapon for the purpose it was designed for. even the Britishairs used them in Centeral American jungles to say the least.

its like buying a cheap car and middle range car, everyone got a Aks and few have M16S

Xl_target and nagarifle, my bad guys. Came to know few days back that LTTE indeed used M16s. But they were used mostly by higher ups. Exact numbers are not known, but source of M16s was from 'Golden Triangle' area. I guess primary reason for widespread usage of AKs over M16s is due to easy availability of AKs in the the market. Would love to know more.

Hello friends,

Here's another post on Bollywood weapons blog. This time it is about Gangs of Wasseypur. Looking forward to your suggestions and thoughts. http://bollywood-weapons.blogspot.in/20 ... eypur.html

There is one thing that makes a rifle suitable for rebel movements more that anything else: A-V-A-I-L-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y.
Whatever they can afford and find, whatever their secret (or otherwise) supporters will and can supply. Nothing to do with reliability, brilliant design, etc. Anything that will go bang and ammo can be found, or improvised for. During secondary stages of the conflict that usually becomes the government's weapons.

To try and draw conclusions as to reliability and suitability of a rifle from its use by rebel movements is mistaken. The AK47, for instance is very "unsuited" for desert or mountain warfare where engagement distance tends to be long.