Celebratory gunfire - a potential safety hazard!

[art_collector]

....a eleven year old child died at a marraige ceremony while dancing as he was hit by a bullet and another was seriously injured. Wish the gun owner had used a blank cartridge. The police of the area should atleast cancel such licences.....

Wish there was a school where these idots could be taught safe firing and handling of firearms......you often find people pointing revolvers at others while while taking a aim ......pointing the revolevr at some one while loading the cartridges....keeping the fingers on the trigger ....

Tragedies waiting to happen..............untrained drunk people at marriages.....Virginia is not far.......it cud happen here
AC

[mehulkamdar]

While this was a tragic and completely unavoidable accident, worse than VA Tech has happened in India. Nithari remind you of anything? And no guns were involved there just in case you don't remember.

[Vikram]

Nithari or Virginia, no reason for people discharging guns in drunken haze in populated areas.That itself is an offence and valid reason to take the guns off their hands.I would wholeheartedly support such a move.If I am not wrong,drunk drivers in US and UK,when caught, cannot own firearms legally for certain period.Will check on that.

Best-
Vikram
Vikram

[mehulkamdar]

Where is the evidence of this "drunken haze" bit? Or, is there some more fancy copy-writing hereto add to the earlier post? Even AC didn't embellish his post, brief and without any reference at all as it was, with this additional piece of "news."

Does sound like the bullet-proof vest that MSNBC claimed that the VA Tech shooter was wearing.

Let me call anti gun bunk on this here in the absence of credible information here.

It has been a tradition in Northern India and in Pakistan to shoot in the air at weddings, as it has in almost the whole of the Middle East as well as in parts of Europe like Crete and almost all of the former Yugoslavia. I have been at parties in Georgia in the former Soviet Union where this happened. I'd love to see this grandmotherly advice dished out at one of these places to those celebrating, and in person.

Not to say that I approve of wasting ammunition by shooting in the air but I do have to call bunk when it is posted here.

[Vikram]

"Tragedies waiting to happen..............untrained drunk people at marriages.....Virginia is not far.......it cud happen here
AC"

No fancy copy-editing needed here since what he said is evident. The law in India clearly states that firearms cannot be discharged in populated areas.If people flout that in the name of tradition,it does not become right.Then there are so many traditions that are practiced against law.Allow all of them go unchecked.That is not within my abilities to physically stop a bunch of armed people.However,I have a duty to inform the law about it and aid them where allowed and possible and no one can stop me nor will I allow any one to stop me from doing that. Let any one try me and they shall find out what type of grand mother I am. Right, I would like to see anyone supporting this type of practice, to do it in US or UK or in Germany or Switzerland or France or Norway or Sweden etc etc.One can carry ones traditions with them.Can't they?

Best-
Vikram

[The Doc]

Shooting in the air at marriage celebrations while being drunk is something that should be stopped. I have myself operated upon several of these men over the years. Few years back there was this guy ( late twenties) with his Jammu made Donali at a wedding when a drunken friend of him borrowed his Donali to fire in air. As the drunken friend was trying to close the donali after inserting cartridges in it it accidently fired taking away the lateral 1/3 rd of my patients knee . Many surgeries later the knee is back to near normal and this patient is about to get married himself next month. I asked him last week where the donali is now and he said that after that incident the donali has been locked in the almirah and now he has a an IMPORTED pistaul .

My present dilemma is a middle aged diabetic lady whose left humerus has been shattered by her nephews drunken firing at a marriage party.

Fire safety rules are a must and should be drilled into all firearm owners but accidents also do happen because of malfunctioning of poor quality poorly maintained firearms.

RP.

[mehulkamdar]

Vikram,

Again my question - give me a reference as far as the incident in question is concerned. Unreferenced stuff is nothing more than hearsay, aka bunk. Not even grandmotherly - a mere old wives' tale.

As far as the Virginia is not far - it could happen here bit is concerned, I shall accord it the contempt that it deserves. That is little more than alarmist crap from someone who seeks to equate a possibly risky mode of celebration with the deliberate killing of 32 people. Quite the same nonsense is bandied about in extension in asking whether the traditions of particular countries could be carried over elsewhere. The question of exporting traditions was never mentioned - the fact that they have prevailed for well over one hundred years in several parts of the world with few, if any deadly consequences certainly was. And I have been witness to one of these incidents in Tbilisi some years ago, unlike armchair theorists who might have the comfort of their living room cushions and television screens to base their judgements from. This comparison is illogical to the extent of being patently stupid. And, to give it any kind of credit would be to assume the same stupidity oneself.

Sure, people have the freedom to believe what they want to. When these beliefs are expressed, they ought not to do an angry dance when they elicit a belly laugh. After all, as Benjamin Disraeli reminded the British people many years ago, the ancient Egyptians did worship an insect.

[art_collector]

......my mistake that I did not post the source of my information. One I never post anything without actually reading about it or knowing about it from a reliable source. The shooting tragedy was on the news last nite. It was in the newspapaer today..either Hindustan times or Times of India page 4 or 5. The picture the boy who lost his life was also there.
......last year at a marriage at noida the bride groom got killed by celebratory fire...and of all the people it was his father who fired in the air and as he brought the revolver down it fired again by mistake and the bullet enetered his neck....the entire episode was filmed by a photographer on his cam and was on the TV channels.
........the firing in the air actually takes place law or no law...most of the places the IN LAWS get offended if firing in the air does not take place... I know of a case in which eight children got injured when they stood on the balcony to watch a procession....Comparing it with virginia might not be that correct as there it was planned senseless killing of innocent...but these cases are no less and some steps must be taken to insure that such accidents dont happen.
In Delhi ofcourse things are different ...the licence itself carries the condition that u cannot fire in marriages etc and if u do ur licence would be cancelled. And I have heard a gun dealer actually asking a customer during the marriage season what for purpose he needs ammo and telling him about the condition on his licence and then insisting that he buy just blank fire cartridges.
Hope this post serves its purpose ...other wise its open to editing... my idea was just to share a thought. I hope it conveyed the rite message and nothing else.

[danish21]

Boy killed in accidental fire in marriage party

Posted at Sunday, 22 April 2007 13:04 IST
Faridabad, April 22: In a tragic incident, a boy was killed and another sustained injuries when a barati accidentally fired at them during a marriage here, Sahara Samay sources said.

According to the sources, the barati, who opened fire, was in inebriated state. A ten-year-old boy was killed in the firing while another suffered injuries. He has been admitted to hospital.

The incident took place in old area of the city.

Meanwhile, police has registered a case and investigation is on, they added.

http://www.saharasamay.com/samayhtml/ar ... wsid=73859

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Boy injured in firing at marriage party
Tribune News Service

A boy received bullet injury as some drunken people fired to express their happiness in a marriage party at a marrige palace here on last night. The injured has been identified as Dilshad of Ward No. 11 here.

The injured was admitted to the Civil Hospital. He was later shifted to a private hospital. He received the bullet injury in his abdomen and his condition was reported to be serious.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041129/haryana.htm#4

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Accidental fire kills youth

Youth Mehar was killed in a fire shot accidentally at Khanpur Kalan village 30 km from here last night, the police said here today. The youth was member of a marriage party. The police registered a case. The body has been sent for a post-mortem examination. Youth Sunil was dancing with his loaded pistol, the police said.

Meanwhile, panic prevailed at another marriage party when two groups fired shots in the Chhinauli village 15 km from here last night, the police said.

The police registered a case. — PTI

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070221/haryana.htm#6

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This does'nt means that there should be ban due to few idiots who do these type of things after they are drunk.

Danish

[art_collector]

Thanks for posting the details......

[mehulkamdar]

AC,

Since when does the "rite message" involve equating the accidental injury or death of someone with the deliberate murder of 33 people by someone else?

Speaking of editing responses, it is not anyone's job to edit responses unless they are either obscene or they reflect something illegal. At the same time, I do think that I am well within my rights as a member - not as a moderator here - to dispute the tone and language of your post and of it's subsequent defence.


The kind of posts that you and two other members here have been making since the VA Tech killings are verbatim those of the gun ban crowd in the USA and their partners in the UK and India. Sound with absolutely no substance, and an apparent intention to deceive those who might be ignorant or overemotional about guns so that they are moved in an anti gun ownership direction. As long as this happens here, as a gun owner and someone who cares deeply about the right to keep and bear arms, I shall make it a point to dispute disinformation whenever it is presented.

We have been receiving so many hits on our forums since the VA Tech tragedy that it is clear that a major section of the Indian media has been visiting IFG to find out what our views on this are as a group. Our servers have been down because of the huge number of hits, some 10% of the total number of hits on our website occurring since the VA Tech attacks alone. I have no intention of letting outright lies and false comparisons from anti gun ownership sources get propagated as if they were the facts in connection with the massacre or with the whole issue of gun ownership in the greater scheme of things.

[Vikram]

Looks like the references are provided for the “tragedy” in question. So, can we expect a withdrawal of the uncomplimentary adjectives- “hearsay, grandmotherly, mere old wives' tale”?


Re “Virginia= drunken festive shooting in the air”. That was not my stance at all and nowhere did I say that. I agree that both are in no way related and each need to be discussed independent of each other.I am completely against using that incident against gun ownership.

“Quite the same nonsense is bandied about in extension in asking whether the traditions of particular countries could be carried over elsewhere. The question of exporting traditions was never mentioned”.

I was specifically referring to Indian laws about discharging a firearm in populated areas and being drunk at the same time. Traditions have their place and law has its place. If the law says it’s unlawful, then it’s unlawful. You don’t like the law, change it. Until then it must be obeyed. Are you suggesting it’s alright to break the law because it has been practiced over a hundred years? We have rapped knuckles here for lesser offences by our members. While I was specifically referring to Indian context, I was given the example of similar practices around the world and I was challenged if I dare give the same grand motherly advice in person to such people in Georgia,Yugoslavia,Arab countries etc. Where was the question of me going to these countries and advising them while I was India specific?

“This comparison is illogical to the extent of being patently stupid. And, to give it any kind of credit would be to assume the same stupidity oneself.”

Now, you tell me where this pejorative gnashing fits in when I was specifically dealing with the practice in the Indian context. Hence the suggestion to carry out this “eminently safe tradition” on foreign shores. If it is safe to shoot in air, drunk or undrunk, in populated areas with utter disregard to local law, and if one can afford to suggest, on the basis of having been a witness to such a display, that it is a safe practice, why not those who support this practice do it where they are. I distinctly remember, once I cautioned Naren, a well trained responsible shooter, to edit his post because it suggested of shooting riffles in an open ground. Why? Do I need to explain the dangers of shooting rifles in populated areas in air? You want this to continue because the accidents are infrequent? How many are reported BTW? Ask the qualified doctor who posted above if the lady complained against her drunken nephew who shot her.

“Unlike armchair theorists who might have the comfort of their living room cushions and television screens to base their judgements from.”

Right, let us all shut down our TVs, stop reading news papers,books,magazines,internet,stop listening to people who are more knowledgeable than us since knowledge can only be gained from first hand experience . Comfort? Living room? Cushions? Vaguely remember them.

“When these beliefs are expressed, they ought not to do an angry dance when they elicit a belly laugh”.

Right said Fred.

as a gun owner and someone who cares deeply about the right to keep and bear arms, I shall make it a point to dispute disinformation whenever it is presented.

Precisely for these reasons, I would not want guns in the hands of drunken and irresponsible people who violate law and jeopardise their own lives and of those around them. I am not a believer in that kind of blanket gun ownership. I will as fearlessly and with a deep sense of responsibility dispute any suggestions that encourage irresponsible gun ownership. I do not believe that is being anti-gun. Absolutely the contrary.

"We have been receiving so many hits on our forums since the VA Tech tragedy that it is clear that a major section of the Indian media has been visiting IFG to find out what our views on this are as a group. Our servers have been down because of the huge number of hits, some 10% of the total number of hits on our website occurring since the VA Tech attacks alone. I have no intention of letting outright lies and false comparisons from anti gun ownership sources get propagated as if they were the facts in connection with the massacre or with the whole issue of gun ownership in the greater scheme of things."

They will see that we are having an honest and open discussion without the guilt of pretending that all is well with gun owners and that we are open to self analysis. It will only help us. Not being apologists to irresponsible people. Only, just because people have different beliefs, they do not automatically become stupids, antis spreading falsehood, insects etc.

Best-
Vikram

Pee why yes: Tbilisi means "worm".So quoteth the queen of Georgia.

[art_collector]

............I regret that I mixed the two unrelated incidents......I simply compared them because Virginia was fresh on my mind.........my intention was not to harm any gun owners rights. Two different issues which shud have been discussed seperately. I realise my mistake and wud be more careful in my future posts.

The original post simply carried a simple message of educating a gun owner about safety and safe handling of a firearm that he owns and that should not in anyway be taken in the wrong sense...of restricting gun ownership . Members who post here would obviously be knowing about safe handling of firearms .......but most of the people who own firearms dont know about safe handling and they are the ones to be educated. Quite a daunting task......but some one would have to take a step in that direction.

AC

[eljefe]

While it might be a social tradition across the continent, the fact is that, a majority of people are blind drunk in the wedding procession...
India ia a VERY crowded country.Most wedding processions meander through narrow, densely crowded lanes.I have on record, a groom who was shot and died in the celebratory fire of his own wedding...
My ER in a major hospital of Delhi was swarming with gun toting, drunk guests, and we had to empty out the ER staff, call for the police and after establishing a deterrent presence, announce the death.
This was the first case i've handled of a groom being shot on his own wedding.
Whether its arm chair espousal of a cause or mainstream chest thumping , barricade breaking version, the moot point is-
does irresponsible gun ownership deserve a strong deterrence/punishment?
The answer is YES, IMO.
Best
Axx

[mundaire]

The points being made by both Vikram and Asif, are valid ones. Simply because something is tradition, it does not make it right. Irresponsible behaviour does nothing to benefit the cause of freer gun laws, in fact if anything it harms it irreparably. It is idiots such as these, who are a minority amongst gun owners, but do not know/ care about the ABC's of safe gun handling, that give the rest of (the vast majority) of gun owners a bad name.

I recall, we had a long discussion on the old Yahoo group about celebratory gunfire and the possible danger of falling bullets. During the course of that discussion, we did reach the conclusion that falling bullets, though a risk, are not a major threat - based on injury statistics and the (substantially) lower energy levels that a falling bullet has. But even this low threat is best avoided...

However, in the cases mentioned above, it was not falling bullets but guns discharged in an unsafe manner (unsafe direction, accidental discharge due to the shooter being inebriated etc.) - that seems to be the culprit. Adherence to the basic rules of firearm safety could have averted each one of these rather unfortunate accidents.

As to the law - yes it is against the law to discharge a firearm in a populated area - not just in India, but in most countries. However, as Mehul pointed out it is a tradition here and in every instance of celebratory gunfire I have seen the local police completely ignore it. In certain places this is considered so normal, that when renting out wedding tents, the cost of repair (post it being tattered by gunfire) is taken into account when renting it for weddings of people belonging to certain communities! In these places, you'd be hard pressed to find a single wedding tent without patchwork repairs carried out on bullet holes. BUT This DOES NOT make it OK!!

As the only India specific online community of gun/ shooting enthusiasts, I think it is our responsibility to encourage safe and responsible gun ownership AT ALL TIMES.

Cheers!
Abhijeet