Indians For Guns

Our arm forces are rejecting the INSAS for being too shoddy and the fact that it fails to instantly deal death has made it unpopular among the star studded generals. It also fails due to it weighing 4.1 kg which is considerably more than the less than 3.5 kg requirement for an assault rifle. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the INSAS, although it is a little rough around the edge ( what can one expect for 24K as compared to 125K+ for higher finished brands). Since non-fatal injuries are the explicit aim of the 5.56mm rounds, it cannot be blamed for its less than fatal effects, besides, the smaller, lighter bullets equates to more bullets that can be carried. Instead of fishing around for foreign made arms and being dependent on costly products, its about time the government starts easing up on our own arms production and licensing.
I wonder how Nepal and Oman feels regarding our own army's rejection of the INSAS, especially when they have already imported tons of it
So which do you think will make a good replacement for the INSAS rifle?

AR-15 should be fine, it has improved a lot over the years. Different variations retail from 400 to 1200 USD in the US civilian market, but if you buy in bulk then can be had for much less.

You can also get a license and produce them locally...

I read somewhere that Nepal a few years back was trying to workout a deal with H&K to procure and then locally produce G36 rifles locally and that kind of pissed some of the Indian authorities and they pulled a few strings and the whole project was shelved, but they (Nepal Army) did get a few G36 rifles

Colt m4 carbine can be the replacement.It performs good in close combat(Most combats occures closer than 300 m). H&K G36 is also a great contender of similar caliber.Also G36 can be used as a SAW and has more range.

But in the end its the decision of our bigbelly ministers..:p

Cheers

Interesting choices...HK G-36 more than the rest especially as it meets alot of the criterias set out by the arm forces, can even be used on a bipod...nice. I thought the colt m4 was a little low on stopping power and a little high maintenance but it seems to be the most cost-effective. AR-15 is also a good choice but most would feel its a little dated in terms of modular design. What about the FNH-SCAR variants? seems to be even lighter than G-36. I don't know if we can afford it for general issue though (so hardly a replacement). Please keep the suggestions coming. thanks.

There are lots of good, viable and proven assault rifles available to a Government buyer.
The key is to pick one and license it but don't let IOF build it. They have built decent rifles in the past like the SLR but it doesn't seem like the current generation of products coming out of IOF factories are worth a darn. Though their .22 LR and 30-06 bolts do show some promise.

Buy them outright or let private industry in India build it and I'm sure you'll be able to get something that our Jawans can trust their lives to.

If its the ability to deal instant death, and if one insists in 5.56mm cal, then a certain type of ammo has to be used.....namely the M855A1

More info here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

Its probably easier to achieve that with the AK series and its 7.62x39mm ammo.

But accomodating M855A1 for the INSAS might not be worthwhile.

By most accounts, INSAS reliability is under question. One needs to understand that designing a reliable 5.56mm AR is not easy. The americans struggled with ti with their AR-15, M-16, M4 etc for decades before reaching the holy grail. which for the Indians might be just round the corner as first pics of the INSAS were seen in mid 80s.

I think it would bode well for our armed forces to license produce the HK G36 in India by someone big private industrial manufacturing house. The govt houses just don't have the capability......

M.

shadowring wrote:Our arm forces are rejecting the INSAS for being too shoddy and the fact that it fails to instantly deal death has made it unpopular among the star studded generals. It also fails due to it weighing 4.1 kg which is considerably more than the less than 3.5 kg requirement for an assault rifle. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the INSAS, although it is a little rough around the edge ( what can one expect for 24K as compared to 125K+ for higher finished brands). Since non-fatal injuries are the explicit aim of the 5.56mm rounds, it cannot be blamed for its less than fatal effects, besides, the smaller, lighter bullets equates to more bullets that can be carried. Instead of fishing around for foreign made arms and being dependent on costly products, its about time the government starts easing up on our own arms production and licensing.
I wonder how Nepal and Oman feels regarding our own army's rejection of the INSAS, especially when they have already imported tons of it
So which do you think will make a good replacement for the INSAS rifle?

The 5.56 ammo should be the standard.Talking about stoping power,its mostly required at very close encounters(almost face to face).According to bettle experts,it is better to wound than to kill.Because wounded solders need attention.At last as we all say the accuracy of m4 or G36 always above the power of Ak-47.

shadowring wrote:. AR-15 is also a good choice but most would feel its a little dated in terms of modular design.

the only reason i suggested AR-15 because of low cost and the required caliber, however if you are looking for a good rifle with good accuracy and stopping power i would suggest that we go for Barrett M468.

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fails to instantly deal death

suggestions for other 5.56mm rifles

A 5.56 NATO isn't going to be any deadlier fired out of a Colt or H&K than it is out of an INSAS.

As far as the INSAS being too heavy... there are more countries than I can readily count whose soldiers have carried or still carry Kalashnikov variants.

My suggestion would be to send the people responsible for the INSAS' quality control problems to prison, then set up a competent operation to re-arsenal the existing rifles to acceptable levels of fit and finish.

Vz58. Better built than an AK, fewer parts and as much of a kitchen utensil.

shadowring wrote: and the fact that it fails to instantly deal death

The ability to "instantly deal death" depends on one thing, and one thing only. The hit in the right place. Nothing else. A flesh wound from a .50 BMG will take out a bigger chunk of flesh then would one from a 5.56mm, but it would not "instantly deal death".

There's no apparent problem with the basic design of the INSAS. It's a very nice AK variant, and it should be rated up there with the Finnish and Yugoslavian variants.

From the English-language Indian news articles I've found, the problem seems to be a military/government/production disaster that is impressive even by American standards.

The logical thing would be to fix the quality control problems for the production of new INSAS rifles and to set up a line to re-arsenal the existing ones to meet the new quality control standards.

It's a political problem, not an engineering or production problem.

Fixing the problems would, at this late stage, probably require replacing every person involved in the weapon's manufacture, and setting up a separate organization to proof, certify, and accept each weapon into the military supply chain.

Staking the current plant managers and inspectors out over anthills could be used as an incentive for the new management...

A famous quote....."Untill you are not in a position to frame policies..better follow them...!!".

How many of the knowledgeable people discussing here for a suitable replacement of INSAS had actually fired this weapon in all terrain and weather conditions and in all combat situations,...????

I being an Ex-Officer of Armed forces had done this with all varients and models INSA Systems and the latest upgrades of these weapons are performing upto the mark.

Anyway it was nice to hear so many views from Ho'nable members here...

Dheeraj,

I disagree with the famous quote you quoted. ........

I have not fired an INSAS but do remember photos and articles of this rifle from an India Today magazine of the mid eighties. If it takes this long to perfect an infantry weapon, I seriously believe that is a problem and a matter of shame for all involved. Do note its the tax payers money that has and is being wasted.

I am left wondering how many HK G36 or Colt M4s we could have bought with ALL that tax payers money (yours, mine and everyone else's) that was put in to "perfect" the INSAS.

Do please share your experiences with the INSAS during your tenure. It would make interesting reading.

M.

dheeraj_1772 wrote:A famous quote....."Untill you are not in a position to frame policies..better follow them...!!".

How many of the knowledgeable people discussing here for a suitable replacement of INSAS had actually fired this weapon in all terrain and weather conditions and in all combat situations,...????

I being an Ex-Officer of Armed forces had done this with all varients and models INSA Systems and the latest upgrades of these weapons are performing upto the mark.

Anyway it was nice to hear so many views from Ho'nable members here...

dheeraj_1772 wrote: the latest upgrades of these weapons are performing upto the mark.
...

Only the mark is too low and obsolete. Given, what other countries have..

Regards
S