Indians For Guns

I'm visiting here to post about the development and research many over
the years have done on the 12ga From Hell, related cartridges, and other
big bore guns and cartridges. First the idea for the 12ga FH was Rob's
on the AA Big Bore forum and he put the first one in a Borchardt falling
block that was built large enough for BMG size cases.We built first
12ga FH cases from BMG cases with old rim turned off and case threaded
with a 12ga size rim piece screwed on. First 2 pictures show our case with
regular 12ga case and other shows how the cases are made..We also get
turned brass cases from RMC in different lengths..
Here are pictures, of the huge variety of 12ga slugs and
saboted slugs we use and that many have developed..
First a 600 NE slug in in 12ga wadcup... 2nd The US-S slug from the EU
along with others.3rd a Jacketed 730gr and a hard cast, heat treated
600gr, full bore slugs, both take high speeds, 4th sabot with hard cast .504"
diameter 440gr slug, 5th other sabots, 6th brass turned slugs, with a foster,
and there are many others.In the next post we'll some of the guns.Ed

Here are the pictures for you on our 12ga FH, 700HE, and other guns
and work on guns like 8ga, 4ga, break actions, bolt actions, etc.
First is picture of the Savage 210 I had the first 12ga FH in with heavy barrel. 2nd
is the 1887 levergun I put heavy barrel on for the case. 3rd is Enfield and
Savage 210 with my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Next showing an 8ga we built using a thick barrel SB2 NEF
10ga gun. We bored out the barrel and rechambered for the 3.3" long 8ga case.
The cases are the 8ga heavy duty plastic kiln gun cases we swage down to remove
the belt step. She gets a 900gr over 2000 fps.
Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. Has 30" effective 8ga size. 832" bore, barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed
Next is picture of my 12GA FH in the NEF with a barrel extension added.
I never was happy with short barrel and now I can test velocities in long one.
And has thumbhole stock now in place of original and helps tame recoil.
Next is a NEF with a mono-blocked 585 cal barrel in it for my 585HE belted case.
This case will outrun the trex , and is simpler to resize and load. I also put it in
a CBC singleshot action by mono-blocking in a 585 barrel. To do this I cut
off barrel about 3" ahead of the breach, ream and thread it and thread 585 barrel to go in.
Makes nice inexpensive singleshot elephant gun out of C&R type gun.
Next is the new RMC PH super large action that I put my 585HE, 585HSM
and 700HE long case, and 700H 3.25" into.
In front the 585HSM with port lengthened , in back the 700H 3.25" one. I have barrels
in my 585HE and long 700HE to switch to also.We got the first Montana Rifle
Co PH made, in 2nd pic showing that first PH action out of factory from the bottom
with the 700 barrel in it..
Next is the Vulcan 50cal bolt action I have my long 3.87" 700HE case in.
This gun can take any pressure you want and I got 1000gr
up to 3200 fps and 825 gr to 3400 in that case, shown in middle.
Soon will be setup for longest 4.25" 700 HE Long on the right and
will get at least 10% more speed and 20% more energy.
Next is the Hubel Falling Block, HFB, in 4bore and 8ga. This falling block uses
a simple open hammer setup and all sizes use same hammer, trigger, lever,etc.They
are just different widths for barrel and case size. This falling block is a different
concept, with action and barrel in a one piece stock. The 4ga is 1"bore and uses
cases we made from 20mm brass and they are same as the 4ga turned cases that
Ken Owen had made for the 4bore doubles he made. The 8ga uses the heavy plastic
kiln case we swaged the belt down on.And brass cases if we get them made.
I have a huge amount more info and pictures, about our big bore research and work.Ed

Here are some pictures of our various cases, how they are made,
comparing sizes, showing them loaded, empty, and sectioned.

First is a bunch of our biggest ones. In order- 2bore, 4bore, 8ga, 10ga,
12ga FH , 700HE, 700H 3.25, with 30-06 for comparison.
2nd-- showing the process of making our 12ga FH from BMG brass
by putting on a 12ga rim piece..
3rd- showing how we make our 700HE belted case from BMG brass
by putting on a belt them expanding case to 700cal.
4th- Showing our 700HE with 700 H 3.25 along with bullets.
5th- showing our 4bore case and the 20mm we make it from
and jacketed 4bore slugs..
6th-A regular brass 12ga case and our 12ga FH
7th-Center 585HE belted case and 700H 3.25, 458 for comparison.
8th- Our 700HE case, that was fired 25 times, sectioned to show
the strength and the lack of case stretching. Over half the loads were
full power, max loads.
9th- An 8ga plastic kiln case, sectioned to show its great strength.
I can fire these 4 times with fairly strong loads without sizing.
10th- A comparison of length for my 585HE and a 505 Gibbs,
showing that my super 585HE can fit in many guns that the
Gibbs goes into, like PH, Enfield, CZ550, Big Ruger 77,
as well as any falling block or break action, double, single, o/u.
11th- Our 700H 3.25, in a MRC PH, bolt action, the first one
from the factory, feeding from the single stack
magazine we built. Gun has thumbhole stock
and 700cal rifled barrel. Ed

Here are pictures, huge variety of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
First a 600 NE slug in in 12ga wadcup... 2nd The US-S slug
along with others.3rd a Jacketed 730gr and a hard cast, heat treated
600gr, full bore slugs, 4th a sabot with hardcast .504"
diameter slug, 5th other sabots, 6th brass turned slugs
and there are many others.Ed

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed

Interesting thread. Keep it coming.

Hubel,

I am relishing all the exceedingly interesting information you have posted so far.Please continue to post and share your knowledge with us.Thank you.


Best-
Vikram

Thanks hubel,
My shoulder feels sore just looking at those photos.

You can see various 4bore, 8bore, etc shooting videos on Youtube.
Some of the guns will be nice old timers like the pictures.

And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling
blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed

thanks hubel.
are you a gunsmith or is it your hobby.that was one hell of information you can get from,only a gunsmith.
regards.

I am just my own gunsmith. and not a fancy finish one either.
And I am mainly a internal ballistics scientist, self taught with
a math, physics, chemistry background.

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed

Hi Hubel,

Many thanks for sharing your works with us. I sincerely applaud your interest and accomplishments as a self-taught gunsmith.Please do continue to share your progress.

Best-
Vikram

Here is picture of my 585HSM and some other cases.
It is made from reworked bmg brass, and case 3.6" long.
Got it in a PH in the 2nd picture. 3rd picture a supply
of 585 or 24 ga if you want, that are hard cast and
lubes and they take the real high sped ok...ED
Here is picture of Brett Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel,
oversize recoil pad, and he put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.
He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot to 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI sabot and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC brass cases...Ed
New super strong 12ga bolt gun is out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
receiver built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out a little
Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
Ruger 77. ED

Many are interested in 12ga FH set up in doubles.
Able to take higher pressures than thin shot barrels.
Like the pressures in NE cases that are put in doubles
that are similiar to big shot gun frames.
Rob on the AR Forum who's idea the 12GA FH originally was,
is doing one by putting heavy one on a large 10ga frame.
He is mono-blocking in heavy 12ga rifles barrels into the
breach section of the 10ga.He has to make and install ribs,
quarter rib, etc, so it will look like a big double rifle.
5th picture is of bolt action a guy made for big cases,
beautuful work and very strong.6th picture is a bolt gun
a guy on gunsmithing forum built for 8ga. Uses top power
loads that the heavy duty 8ga plastic cases can do.Ed