Indians For Guns

Defence Production



http://mod.nic.in/product&supp/welcome.html



on Defence Production general reading

read it guys nice gen info i am sure you guys will like it

I stopped reading after I came across this:

All the 39 Ordnance Factories have switched over to Quality Management Systems compliant to ISO–9001:2000. The Upgraded version gives special emphasis on customer satisfaction and continuous quality improvement.

Don't get me wrong, I know how capable some of these industries can be. My aunt retired from BEML, my uncle was an engineer at Garden Reach and my father was attached to the office of the Director General Naval Dockyard Expansion(DGNDES) in Bombay when it was being expanded in the late'70's and early 80's. I've just got to laugh when I look at their "highlights". For example, the ZSU-23 was first introduced to service in 1965 and we're celebrating the fact that we can make ammo for it now?

XL, as I read the part that you quoted, I don't see anything -- as in, no content.

It's my understanding that the ISO 9000 standards specify various processes that are needed for a certain degree of quality.

When I read this, I hear: "We've implemented processes that are compliant to ISO 9000." This does not tell me what the level of quality is, or even how much it has increased. Even assuming that quality has increased, if quality was abominable in the first place and it has gone up a tick or two, what's being made could still be a piece of junk and the statement would still be true.

Furthermore, I read that they SAY that they've implemented these processes, but they don't say that anyone has come to certify that the processes have been successfully implemented, or who the certification agency might be.

In short, what I'm seeing quoted here has as much meaning as if they had said the factories make Fancy Grade 100% virgin naugahyde.

Yes exactly, Timmy, once you implement the processes, you are then audited by an independent agency to see how closely you follow the processes. You can maintain your certification if you can show that the processes are being followed. I help out with internal audits in my company so am relatively familiar with the process. This mention of ISO 9000 here seems like so much window dressing.

What makes me sad is that I know that we are capable of producing quality products. Private sector industries in India do that on a regular basis. The government monopolies of certain industries are woefully inefficient and as government employees, they are not fired for incompetence. You have seen the quality of products put out by the ordnance factories. In most countries where free enterprise thrives, no one would give them a second glance. As for customer satisfaction, they act like they are doing you a favor when they allow you to buy their shoddy and over priced products.

Its like when the Russians had bumper harvests in the 1970's but it was still easier for them to distribute US grain (shipped out of the Great Lakes ports), while their grain rotted in the fields or in storage due to badly maintained equipment and uncaring workers. Not that one can blame them too much, they were not allowed to have a stake in the crops that they harvested so when quitting time came, they all got off their tractors and went home. Whereas in the US, a farmer will run 24-7, even eating his meals on the go, till all his crops are in. You've seen it, you know what I'm talking about. That is the attitude that is missing in some of the public sectors.

XL: Yes sir, I do know exactly what you are saying, and when I was young I did see those Soviet grain ships in Calumet Harbor. (http://www.boatnerd.com/news/newsthumbs ... -08-cw.jpg)

What you are saying reminds me of Polish industry during the bolshevik occupation: At times, things could be wonderfully made (even now, Polish produced TT 33 pistols and M 44 Mosin Nagants are often noted as being some of the nicest examples of those weapons), but often the consumer goods would have some poorly engineered or manufactured aspect that would soon render the product unusable. Of course, that is an extreme example, for in Poland it was often considered patriotic to produce junk and to do as little work as possible -- with justification, in my opinion.

When you say:

What makes me sad is that I know that we are capable of producing quality products.

I am sure you are right. Matter of fact, when I look at my RFI 2A, there is nothing at all about its manufacture to indicate shoddy or inferior workmanship, and it is said that the ancient No. 1 Mk III action was beefed up to take the 7.62x51 NATO round by superior metallurgy.

But to modern issues, I have followed the Tata Nano quite closely and see it also as a piece of engineering work that may well give Tata and India a trading edge all throughout the region. As someone familiar with metallurgy, I'm sure you're familiar with Henry Ford and his Model T, which (among other things) pioneered the use of superior and, at that time, somewhat exotic alloys like vanadium in a low-priced product. As a matter of fact, Fords were long known for superior metallurgy like very hard bolts and pioneering things like cast iron crankshafts in the flathead V8.

Tata is doing the same thing, by bringing modern technology to the very rock bottom lowest cost car. I mean, 1 lakh (or thereabout)? That is an incredible feat!

Matter of fact, I would love to have one of the rumored turbo diesel versions myself. Just the thing for running errands around town!

I am sure that 1000s of years of metallurgical pioneering and devotion to detail would combine to make fine firearms. Putting the form, beauty, and craftsmanship of something like the Taj or a Tanjore Nataraja would certainly make for a fine firearm anyone would be proud to have sitting in the gun cabinet or to carry in the field. All it would take is unleashing that talent -- which is why we are here.

When I found out about the RFI 2A and that I could have a real, true Indian-made high power rifle (remember, I like milsurps!), I couldn't rest until I owned one. Bring out a nice rifle or handgun, and for sure, I'd be very interested!

(My suggestion: Since there's an appetite for using existing designs, I would really like a renewed and reinvigorated IOF to make a nice version of the old Colt Sauer rifle -- I've always had the hots for one!)

Wonder if a day will come when private players will be allowed to enter in the civilians arms market, and boom a new era of quality and competitive market will emerge, imagine Tata colaborating with colt and Mahindra with Berreta or L&T with Sig Sauer, what an era it would be only the finest would prevail and Indian citizens would be taken for a treat, but thats a wild goose chase but alas the poor IOF monopoly would evaporate over a fortnight.

hmm....dreams apart but last year we heard that Mahindra was in line for bagging some defence contracts any news update on it ???

In case of the IOFB, the certification and subsequent supervision/audit is by a govt. department. As far as the quality standards they adhere to,basically the bare minimum required.They 'meet' the standards and never 'try' to surpass them.

Mr. Frosty if that day ever arise in my lifetime i will be one of the players