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magnum guns...need insight

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:29 pm
by dr.jayakumar
Freinds have we discussed about Magnum handguns?.would anyone mind enlighten me.of course there is a nother way ''google''.but, i prefer to hear from ifg'an's.thanks everyone.

Re: magnum guns...need insight

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:07 pm
by GreenBeret
Magnum handguns use a magnum catridge which is usually larger than the normal catridge. They usually have larger impact with more stopping power. AFAIK the law enforcement units usally will not prefer them due the heavy trigger pull they need. They are also not suitable for small hands.

All "magnum" means is that a given round is either loaded to a higher power level than its progenitor cartridge, or has greater powder volume than its progenitor cartridge. These days, it can be taken to mean any high-pressure, high-performance cartridge. Like the .500 S&W Magnum, which is an original case design, but is called a "magnum" because it's designed to be a very powerful round and requires a big, beefy gun to handle it.

Take, for instance, the .357 Magnum. The .357 Magnum developed from the .38 Special. It is 1/10th of an inch longer than the .38 Special, but this was done, not to increase powder capacity, but to ensure that it couldn't be chambered in .38 Special revolvers. The chief difference between .38 Special and .357 Magnum is one of pressure. The .38 Special descended from old blackpowder cartridges (i.e. the .38 Long Colt.) As a result, it's maximum chamber pressure is held to a modest 17,000 PSI. The .357 Magnum, on the other hand, has a maximum chamber pressure of 35,000 PSI. And since pressure against the base of the bullet equals thrust, a .357 Magnum can throw a given bullet at least 300 ft/sec faster than the .38 Special.

This is the same case with the .44 Magnum, whose progenitor cartridge was the .44 Special, which descended from another old blackpowder case, the .44 Russian. The .44 Special generates a maximum chamber pressure of some 15,500 PSI and can throw a 240 grain bullet at some 750 - 800 ft/sec. The .44 Magnum, like the .357 Magnum, is slightly longer than its parent cartridge, but the chief difference is the operating pressure. The .44 Magnum has a pressure ceiling of 36,000 PSI, so it will throw that same 240 grain bullet at least 400 ft/sec faster.

This is almost the case for the .460 Smith and Wesson Magnum, which is a lengthened .454 Casull case, which was a lengthened and strengthened .45 Colt case. Though the .460 S&W doesn't have a higher pressure ceiling than the .454 Casull, it has a much longer case, designed to hold more powder. And if one has more propellant, one can keep up peak chamber pressure longer, which means more thrust. So a .460 S&W can drive a 300 grain bullet over 2000 ft/sec, whereas a .454 Casull can only drive it at 1700 ft/sec, a Ruger-only .45 Colt pushes it at 1200 ft/sec, and a standard .45 Colt is doing well to break 700 ft/sec

Re: magnum guns...need insight

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:19 pm
by TwoRivers
"...the heavy trigger pull they need.) Would you mind explaining this statement? What does trigger pull have to do with the cartridge? Or are you one of those who believes the harder you pull the trigger, the faster the bullet will go? :roll:

Re: magnum guns...need insight

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 12:44 am
by timmy
Green Beret is on the right track, but the fact of the matter is that there is no simple explanation for "Magnum" as it is used to describe cartridges, because it is one of those words that is ill defined and has little meaning.

For instance, if you follow Green Beret's discussion of the .357 Magnum and the .44 Magnum, you might think that the use of the word is related to chamber pressure, which, in the cases of these two cartridges, is in the 35,000 range. The 9mm Parabellum (sometimes called 9mm Luger) also operates in this range, yet is not referred to as a "magnum" cartridge.

Green Beret also says: "...or has greater powder volume than its progenitor cartridge." This comes a little bit closer to the meaning of the word (if, indeed, it can be said to have a meaning.)

Back in the black powder days, powerful cartridges were termed "Express Train" and then simply, "Express." (See this link for a more detailed explanation.) Later, when the British began using Cordite (at that time, a dual based smokeless powder comprised of nitroglycerine and nitrocellulose.), this term was modified to "Nitro Express," which you are no doubt familiar with.

In the USA, the term "Magnum" was preferred when trying to advertise cartridges of supposedly high power. For instance, in the USA, the term ".375 H&H Magnum" is used to describe what the British call the ".375 Belted Rimless Nitro Express." Or, what in the USA is called the .300 H&H Magnum is called "Holland's Super .30." You'll note that it is a relative term, since "high power" assumes a comparison with something of lesser power. (However, it is seldom specified what the "high power" is in comparison with; such things are usually left to the buyer's imagination.)

Anyway, the term magnum (in Latin) can mean something great or large, and is used to describe many different things. One of the ways "magnum" is used describes a large bottle of champagne. In this sense, large cases based on the parent .300/.375 H&H cases came to be called "Belted Magnum," or just "Magnum."

The silliness of this is evident: most of the cases (except, notably, the Weatherby ones) were shorter, at ~2.5", than their parent .300/.375 case. Many of the hillbillies here in the USA thought that the belt at the base of the case was the reason for the use of the word "magnum," since it supposedly reinforced the base of the case. However, the reason for the belt on these cases was as a method of headspace. You will want to recall that, when the H&H cases were introduced, most high power cartridges were rimmed, or "flanged" as the British say, for use in large double guns. Indeed, both the 300 H&H and the 375 H&H have their rimmed equivalents for use in doubles. Because both of these cartridges have a very slight shoulder, they don't reliably headspace on the shoulder. Also, a rimmed cartridge often times has feed problems through bolt action rifles, especially the M98 based Mauser actions that were popular at the time, so the belted case was a form of a semi-rimmed cartridge that would function through a bolt action rifle, yet not require a distinct shoulder on which to set headspace in the chamber. The belt was, then, for headspace -- it had nothing to do with the cartridge's power. Most of the cartridges derived from the .300/.375 H&H case didn't require the belt, as they had sufficient shoulder on which to headspace -- the .458 Winchester Magnum being an exception.

Going back to the 9mm Parabellum issue I raised at the beginning, the Continental Europeans did not normally use the "Nitro Express" notation of the British or the "Magnum" issue of the Americans to denote high power cartridges.

Another note regarding chamber pressures: at one time, chamber pressures were measured by the "crusher" method. In this process, a copper pellet was placed in a hole in the chamber and sealed. When the round inside the chamber was fired, the copper pellet was crushed a certain amount, depending on the pressure, and the copper pellet was removed and measured, to see how much it was crushed. The amount the copper pellet was crushed was translated into a pressure measurement. Sometimes this is erroneously considered to mean the same thing as "psi" (pounds per square inch), however, the original measurement was in "cup" (copper units of pressure).

A similar method for assessing shotgun chamber pressure uses a lead pellet, so these tests reported shotgun chamber pressures in "lup" (lead units of pressure).

Later, chamber pressures were measured with piezoelectric crystals. This kind of crystal, like a Rochelle Salt crystal Rochelle Salt, will generate electricity when pressure is applied to it, i.e., it is squeezed. In former days, this was the principle that phonograph cartridges worked (if anyone remembers such things).

Chamber pressures measured with the piezoelectric method are reported in psi, or pounds per square inch.

Also, a formula was developed to convert cup to psi, but this is not equal to the psi measurement obtained by the piezoelectric method.

So, it is possible for a cartridge to have chamber pressure reported in cup, or psi, or cup converted to psi. For the same cartridge, none of these figures will be the same... Even if the same cartridge is tested by cup and the cup is converted to psi by formula, this will not necessarily give results comparable to a psi measurement obtained by the piezoelectric measurement.

Beware, then, when comparing chamber pressures. Many folks, feeling that staring at a number on the page indicates an absolute comparison point to any other numbers, have gotten into no end of argument regarding this topic.

However, returning to the original point of the question, "Magnum," like "Express" and "Nitro Express," is a marketing term, and thus has a subjective meaning to each individual who succumbs to the marketing or who accepts such nomenclature as fact. The real truth is, one must examine the performance of each cartridge to get an accurate indication of its performance. Marketing names, such as "Magnum," are not especially useful for comparison. However, they are often used in the name of the cartridge, and therefore do have value as an identifier.

For instance, in this country, we had cars made by General Motors under the badge of "Saturn." Saturn offered a model called the "Ion." "Saturn Ion," therefore, was a useful term in describing to others what kind of car was being discussed, but the name had little value for describing how many electrons were actually in the car.



PS: You might also appreciate this fellow's description of another way that is used to measure chamber pressure:

Chamber Pressure Measurement

And as a final thought with regard to chamber pressures, I would note that the published chamber pressure information of cartridges like the .270 Winchester are as high as any magnum cartridge, when tested by the same means. So, in rifles, "magnum" does not necessarily mean higher operating pressures.

Re: magnum guns...need insight

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:51 am
by TwoRivers
One correction needed here. The pressure recorded by copper crusher was reported as "pounds per square inch", or psi, until the sixties.
Not until better and more accurate measuring techniques had been developed, showing that the measurements recorded were not in fact equivalent to PSI, was the term "Copper Units of Pressure, or CUP, used for pressure determined by the copper crusher method. It was fairly accurate for straight-sided cases, and low to moderate pressure, but gave low readings for bottle-necked cases and higher pressure.
This has already been forgotten by most American editors of gun magazines and gun writers. Or they never new, and are not smart enough to figure out, that a PSI value dating pre-1960s has to be CUP.

Europeans used a very similar method, but pre-drilled the case, and obtained pressures about 5% lower, stated as "atm", or atmospheres per square centimeter, (later "bar").

The British used an altogether different system, expressing the pressure in "tons per square inch", and their pressure values cannot be compared directly. They placed the crusher pellet behind an oiled chamber and case.

This has already been forgotten by most American editors of gun magazines and gun writers. Or they never new, and are not smart enough to figure out, that a PSI value dating pre-1960s has to be CUP.

Re: magnum guns...need insight

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:18 pm
by hubel585
"Magnum" can refer to the results or power levels, whether high pressures
are reached or not, like our work with 12ga FH , 4bore, etc, and other wildcats.
Which some of you have seen around various forums.
My name is Ed Hubel and over the years I and others have worked to continue
development of the 12ga From Hell and other big bores, and have posted info
all around the net about our research and many ideas we have implemented for
12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and wilcat cases.....The idea for the 12ga FH
was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
of guns for the case. First case was a brass case 3.85" long, made from BMG brass expanded
out to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on. Also we get turned cases
from Rocky Mtn Cart of that length and shorter.Here are pictures, the first showing long case with
regular 12ga case. Other various 12ga FH guns are next,1887 with heavy barrel,
Nef Ultra heavy barrel with length added, Sav 210 bolt gun with heavy barrel,
Nef 8ga made by boring out heavy barrel 10ga,A FBW falling block in my 585HE belted case.
.And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga in break actions, and
my wildcat 585HE,700HE in bolt actions, and more..Next to last picture is our big cartridges
from 2 bore on down, in order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25--- 30-06..
The last picture the 4bore falling block we built Our 4bore is 1 inch bore..Ed

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