Indians For Guns

After the defeat of the Italian troops in Abyssinia (Ethiopia) by a combined British, British African and Indian Force in mid 1941, the majority of AOI ( Italian Oriental Africa) weaponry was transferred to India as training Weapons, given the Japanese Encroachment on Burma in 1942.

The Rifles sent include all the Italian M91 Carcano system Rifles and carbines, the Vetterli-Vitali M70 and M70/87 BP 10,4mm Rifles and Carbines, WW I Booty Austrian M95 Carbines and Rifles (Calibre 8x50R ( aka ".315 Indian"...more later) and also relevant MGs and LMGs in Italian and Austrian Calibres.

In 1943 and 44, the Kirkee Ammunition factory manufactured 6,5x52 Italian Rifle ammo, 8x59RB Breda MG ammo, and most importantly, 8x50R Mannlicher (Austrian) ammo, which after WW II, was continued as a Sporting Cartridge ( the .315 Indian...an "NPB" calibre, in a Sporter Lee-Enfield Rifle (still current). It is rumoured that some Indian Units in Assam where armed with M95 Rifles when attacked briefly by Japanese Forces????

Nowadays, some Vetterli Rifles have appeared in Nepalese Surplus sales in recent years ( Mixed in with Gahendras, Martinis and SMLE rifles), but NO Italian or Austrian Modern ( smokeless) rifles have appeared.

MY question is,
What happened to the tens of thousands of Italian AOI rifles at the end of WW II? Were they all melted down, given away, otherwise dumped or destroyed ( maybe by the British before 1947...I would not doubt such a perfidious action)?

Also, the remaining stocks of K^F-made Italian calibre ammo? Was it all expended in training?

I can understand the use of 8x50R as a NPB sporting round...this had already occurred since 1907, when the PB rules were instituted...and BSA immediately made a Lee-Enfield rifle in 8x50R ( .315 Mannlicher) specifically for the Indian Market...I have a very nice example of such a rifle, which was sold out of India in the 1960s ( along with a lot of excellent English make Sporting Big Bores). Supplies Pre-WW II of such ammo was from Kynoch and Eley; after WWII, obviously because of the manufacturing capacity of Kirkee, it was continued after 1947 for the Local sporting Market.

BTW, Evidence of Kirkee Manufacture is in Labbett's "Cartridge Notes" where he displays cartridges and Packets with the typical British Green printed Labels for Military ammo for all three calibres mentioned ( 6,5 mm, 8mm Breda, and 8x50R).

If any of the Learned Collectors and Military Historians on India For Guns can assist in this search for information, I would be grateful...I have several AOI Rifles (M70/87, M91 and M95s) and also one of a special shipment to the KNIL ( Dutch East Indies) in Mid 1942...A shipment of 10,000 rifles and carbines from AOI to Australia to Java...SAF Lithgow even attempted to convert M91 rifles to .303 for the KNIL ( Samples of converted Carcanos in Lithgow Factory Museum, along with Tools for making M95 Dutch rifles into .303 from 6,5x53R...a shipment of 1,000 converted Dutch rifles left Australia in October 1941, but was sunk by a Japanese Submarine before reacing Java.)

Thanks in Advance to all who may be able to help,
best regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics Film Ordnance Services
Brisbane
Australia

Hello Doc

Welcome to the forum. You seem to be very well informed and no doubt your info is also correct. But here in India, awareness and research in 'defence' related items is restricted to what is given to us civvys in the form of exhibits in museums etc. The usual attitude would be "civys have no business in defence matters" Personally, I have never seen a carcano in defence use either in training or otherwise. Of course, All those rifles could still be whithering away deep down in some government armoury.

I know of only one mannlicher carcano and it was in civilian hands. Supposedly a war trophy. I hope other members can give you better information.

Jonah

this had already occurred since 1907, when the PB rules were instituted

This is really good to know the exact year. I was under the impression that PB/NPB concept was started by Lord Curzon when he was Viceroy of India between 1898–1905. Does anybody have the copy of the government document proclaiming the introduction of this PB/NPB concept?

Interesting post,personally I havn't seen Italian rifles in the hands of Indian service personal,though as Jonapah pointed out they could be lying in some government armoury or in the hands of a few people.Some information in this regard would be greatly appreciated from fellow members of IFG.
Regards
Rohan

The Date 1907, for the beginning of the PB/NPB situation, comes from British Sources ( the Civilian Gun makers) who started making guns like the 8mm Mannlicher Lee Enfield ( "Lee-Speed patent"). the .465 Express ( to avoid the ".450" ban;) the 577/500NE ( to replace the 577NE long cases,) and the .470 NE, amongst a range of other Specific "India Trade" market calibres.

I suppose the laws were promulgated in 1905, but the commercial effect was only seen by 1907....especially given the long delay in "Custom" Guns, and developing suitable cartridges etc.

Thanks to those who replied...I suppose I will have to "lean on" my Military Attache and IOB contacts to see what may be hidden away....

Regards,
Doc AV
Brisbane Australia.

Quite an education for me DocAV... thank you for sharing!

As for Mannlicher/Carcano and its relations/derivatives, I only had a 6.5mm (Dutch) Dutch Mannlicher M95 No.5 Karbijn pass through my hands... no ammo. This was a war trophy.

Regards,
cc

DocAv

Thanks for the informative post and do share picture of your BSA .315 mm

best

Welcome aboard and an even more welcome post.

One of the biggest debates here has been aboutthe origin on iof .315 and how the 8x50 R could have ended up in india.

I really wish you were there during that time.
well, better late than never.