Indians For Guns

For reasons beyond my control, my stay in the US has been extended, opening an opportunity for me to bring back one firearm (per person) under transfer of residence (as and when I relocate to India). The following are my thoughts on the issue. As always, your thoughts, sugestions, comments are invited and appreciated.

Reasons to own a firearm:

• Target shooting
  Self defence
  Hunting for sport
  Civil defence
  Hunting for food
  Passion

Target shooting
May it be pistol, rifle or shotgun disciplines, a good club will have decent equipment. We have examples and references of shooters who have used IOF products to compete at the national level, and achieved success. Later on, if one is able to shoot with the best, one can import target grade firearms. If I am not a good shooter, will owning a high quality import make any difference? No.

Self defence
If I ever have to use a firearm for self-defence (or for the defence of family / friends / property), I think it will be one of the most memorable (in all the good and bad ways) days of my life.

Am I an interesting target for organised crime? No. If I were, one or two or three firearms wont cure the situation.

Am I an interesting target for a petty thief? Yes, as is everyone. If a petty thief was merely trying to rob me, I dont want to shoot, I want to scare. Any shotgun / handgun that goes bang is a good option here.
Can the petty thievery situation escalate into something really dangerous? Yes. Now, I may have to shoot. Very likely, at close range. The desired result is that the bang will scare off the antagonists. Am I willing to face the police music? In this situation, yes. Again, any shotgun / handgun that goes bang is a good option.

Am I likely to be involved in a road-rage situation? Possible. Do I want to brandish a firearm and then face the police music? No. If I am assaulted? Maybe.

Am I likely to be accompanying a potential victim in a sexual harassment situation? Possible. Am I willing to brandish a firearm and possibly face the police music? Yes. If the situation escalates, or if it were already escalated, am I willing to use the firearm and then face the police music? In this situation, yes. Again, the desired result is that the bang will scare off the antagonists. Only a handgun is a good option. Can I cary a handgun to any public place? Experiences posted on this forum suggest that may not be the case.

Hunting for sport
Hunting is banned, and in all likelyhood, will remain banned in India for the forseeable future, except for the hunting of, where so officially declared, pests/vermin and rogue/man-eaters. Will I be involved in such a legal hunt? Maybe, if I volunteer and develop contacts with the local authorities etc. In Pune, or for that matter, any big city where I am likely to stay in India? No. Even assuming I am allowed to hunt, an IOF 30-06 rifle (given some TLC and accurate shot placement) should be more than enough for everything except probably a (rogue) rhino or elephant. Its also cheaper and hassel free compared to a TR import.

For hunting safaris in other countries, I can rent a suitable firearm there. Also, exporting a firearm from India for the hunt is probably not allowed, or will create more headaches and cost more than the safari itself.

Civil defence
If there was a war on, or another emergency, and if the government called for, I am sure every able person here would volunteer. NPB firearms are useless in this situation, for the simple reason of incompatibility or unavailability of ammunition. In any case, civil defence is mainly for emergency management, not fighting.

Hunting for food
I can envisage being required to hunt for food only if there is a very serious famine situation and the government machinery breaks down. Theoretically, can happen, but very very remote chances in modern India. Even if it were to happen, the IOF 30-06 rifle (given some TLC) is more than suitable to provide food for the table. Good luck surviving with only 50 cartridges though.

Passion
Ah! Can't put a price on love! A truly well made (aka best quality) firearm is priceless, a source of joy and pride and yes, bragging rights, to the owner. Unfortunately, I dont have the $$$,$$$.00 to spare for a Purdey or a H&H. Not yet anyways. I can very safely asume that most stock firearms curently sold in the USA will be technically superior to any currently available civilian firearm made in India (due to bad GoI policy, but that is another issue).

Conclusion
I believe that well cared for, new, made-in-India firearms, although not great examples of craftsmanship, will shoot, and shoot straight enough. If properly cared for, they are suitable for all practical purposes. A Purdey will not kill a target any deader, but it will do so oh-so-much-more elegantly. Admittedly, for reasons other than purely functional, I am thinking of (if the better half agrees) taking the TR route to import a firearm. Is it worth the cost, paper-work and running around, both here and in India? Hell yes!

Reasons to own a firearm:

In my opinion the reason to own the firearms is because it is a human and a fundamental right which has been guaranteed by our Constitution under Article 21. All other reasons are secondary rather immaterial. I have expressed my opinion in detail at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p117785

Am I an interesting target for a petty thief? Yes, as is everyone. If a petty thief was merely trying to rob me, I dont want to shoot, I want to scare. Any shotgun / handgun that goes bang is a good option here.
Can the petty thievery situation escalate into something really dangerous? Yes. Now, I may have to shoot. Very likely, at close range. The desired result is that the bang will scare off the antagonists. Am I willing to face the police music? In this situation, yes. Again, any shotgun / handgun that goes bang is a good option.

Wrong attitude, dangerous attitude. It is an attitude that could ultimately be fatal to you and your family. Are you willing to live with that?
Before I go any further, let me say that shooting someone is not a good thing. Were I to do that, my personal belief system would be severely violated and I'm sure my remorse and guilt would affect my life for some time after that. Then you have the police and the legal system to deal with. That may or may not go in your favor. This is not something that anyone would want to go through. However, I and/or my loved one would probably still be alive so I'm willing to live with that.

I would not pull a gun to display it, to fire shots in the air, to scare someone off, etc. The only reason I would pull a gun is to use it to defend myself. I would do my best to avoid or retreat from a situation rather than pull my gun. The only time I would pull it out is if I had absolutely no other choice. This would be when I feared for my loved ones or my life. When I do use it will be center mass on the target till the threat stops. The threat, in this case is the fear of grevious bodily injury or death for you or your loved ones.

People who are not fully prepared to use the gun to stop that threat should not carry or brandish a gun. It is not that this might not scare away an assailant as it most likely will. However, there are certain types of criminals who will absolutely not stop their attack on you till you disconnect their central nervous system. How will you know if they are drugged up or loaded with alcohol; in a dark alley, in your backyard at night or in the hallway outside your bedroom in the early morning? They certainly aren't going to tell you. If you try to ascertain how "bad" this bad guy really is before making the decision to pull the trigger, you and the people who depend on you could be dead. If you are not prepared to use it, it most likely be taken from you and used against you or your loved ones. Are you prepared to live with that? I wouldn't be. When your life is held in the hands of a criminal, the only thing you can do is is get the first hit in. The goal is to stop the threat without you or your family being hurt.

In the aftermath of police shootings, you often hear from the relatives of the deceased criminal; "they should have shot him in the leg", or arm. It doesn't seem to work that way in a gunfight. They guy who get the first hit in, usually wins. When the adrenaline starts dumping into your system, you may lose your fine motor skills and about all you can do is pull the trigger. Getting fancy and trying to scare or just wound someone will probably get you or your wife or your kid killed. If you can't be absolutely sure that you can go ahead and use, it's best to leave it at home rather than introducing a gun into a volatile situation where it could be used to your detriment.

xl_target wrote:Wrong attitude, dangerous attitude. It is an attitude that could ultimately be fatal to you and your family. Are you willing to live with that?

completely agree with Xl.

Will someone who carries india a firearm under tfr of resi from USA require to have a indian licence prior to this import or can he keep the firearm and acquire a licence

full_circle,

You'll need an extant and valid license here in India before you bring over anything. I hope you have that organised. Plus the fact that you must have own your weapon/s in the country of origin one year before you actually transfer to India. One must realise that all govts. need their paperwork in order. If that is clear, I see no problem why you should not own the weapons here in India.

As far as weapons are concerned, go in for something that is regular run of the mill stuff, however, I don't mean weapons of inferior quality. The reason is that once you are here they should be easily servicable and should you decide to sell them, anyone would be able to buy them. High end weapons, despite commanding good prices are not easy to sell nor would you like to give to anyone to open up and service. Ideally, one should have a shotgun in over under configuration, a rifle in .22LR or .30-06 Sprg. and a pistol in .32ACP.

I'm not much of a shotgun man, but I would go for the Win. 70 in .30-06 and CZ83 in .32ACP.

Choosing a firearm, would be based on:

1.Valid License(Indian) which clearly states NPB Rifle or NPB Pistol or SBBL/DBBL etc.
2.Choice of weapon would depend on type of firearm entered in the License as in point number 1.
3.Choice of weapon would also depend on availability of ammo in India and associated costs.
4.As outlined by Katana: you need to have owned the weapon for a period of time in the country of origin (I cant recall whether its 1 year or 2 years), please check the relevant TR threads for clarity.

All the best in your efforts

regards

OUP

Thank you goodboy_mentor, xl_target, grewal, andy_65_in, Katana and OverUnderPump.

xl_target, grewal, as far as self defence techniques with firearms is concerned, call me a babe in the woods. Never been trained, never been required to defend myself with a firearm. Have had my share of fist fights and brawls, but nothing where a firearm was remotely involved. My approach stemmed from the thought that self defence need not necessarily be lethal to the other fellow(s). If the firearm scares them off, purpose achieved. If they are unhinged, I can and will use the firearm, knowing fully well that the target will suffer serious injuries, even die. I dont think I can justify (to myself) shooting someone to stop them stealing a valuable, but I can if it was to protect my near and dear ones. But that is just me. I may be wrong, and I thank you for pointing that out. A firearms safety course is required here (the NRA Home Firearm Safety course), I will follow that up with the NRA Basic Personal Protection in the Home course before I buy any firearm. One learns new things constantly.

Katanaji, I dont have an Indian firearms licence. I thought I could come back to India, deposit the firearm with Customs, and apply for the relevant NPB licence, extending the time Customs keeps the firearm (by paying demurrage) as required. If that isnt so, I will have to come back and arrange the licence... another bump in the road...
About the weapons, you make a very good point. Apart from the affordability question, the ease of service and ease of sale (if allowed / when possible) are points that I will also consider before I make the buying decision.

OverUnderPump, I believe the time period is one year. I am certainly looking only at NPB Bolt action rifles / DBBL shotguns / Handguns. Afterall, one does want to fire off those 50 cartridges in India

full_circle,
Sorry, I sound like I'm lecturing you. Didn't mean to do that. I just feel that it is an important point.

My approach stemmed from the thought that self defence need not necessarily be lethal to the other fellow(s). If the firearm scares them off, purpose achieved. If they are unhinged, I can and will use the firearm, knowing fully well that the target will suffer serious injuries, even die. I dont think I can justify (to myself) shooting someone to stop them stealing a valuable, but I can if it was to protect my near and dear ones. But that is just me. I may be wrong, and I thank you for pointing that out.

From a legal standpoint, in most states in the USA, you can only use deadly force if you are in fear of grevious bodily harm or death. In the vast majority of places, you cannot use deadly force to protect property (in a few places like Texas, you can). Just remember that pointing a weapon at a human being is considered use of deadly force (or the threat of deadly force) in most jurisdictions. So you wouldn't want to point a gun at someone unless your life was threatened.... then it goes from a crime to self defense. So you see your thinking was correct. It is not justifiable (in my mind too) to kill some one over property. However, you just can't brandish or point your firearm at someone unless your life is in danger. You break the law (in most places) if you do that. That was the point I was trying to get across; don't pull it unless you're prepared to use it. Also remember that the very best outcome when you pull your gun will be that neither side gets hurt and both victim and perp get to walk away. However, you must be absolutely determined to use it if you have to, no hesitation if your life is in danger. Sounds a little contradictory but if you think about it a little, it will make sense. We all fervently hope that we will never have to use our weapons in anger but we should still be prepared to defend ourselves. It is a responsibility that you can't delegate to anyone else like the Police, lawyers, judges, whatever. Ultimately the responsibility to protect yourself and your family is yours alone.

Since you are in the US, please avail yourself of some firearms training while you can. Hehe, you are in the home of training. There is training available for everything. If you do take an NRA firearms home safety course, you should also try a NRA first steps handgun class. It would be great if you and your wife could take one of those. That way you won't have to unlearn all the bad habits that some us had. My daughter was first taught to shoot a handgun (revolver and semi-auto) by an NRA instructor and she was shooting really well from the get go unlike me who had to unlearn years of movie watching, etc. The most important thing that they will teach you is safe handling of firearms so you can enjoy them without accidentally shooting yourself or someone else. I would then follow that up with a permit to carry class or if your state doesn't require a class for that, take an NRA advanced handgun class. The permit classes usually cover the laws regarding the use of deadly force in your state. Some of the advanced firearms training classes will teach you the techniques to safely deploy and use your firearm so you can do it without fumbling (muscle memory, techniques to practice) when surprised. They will teach you weapon retention techniques, different positions to fire from, firing with movement, etc. Stuff that we didn't know existed but all calculated to let you walk away from a violent encounter. Some of these classes are also a lot of fun.

If you're going to take something back to India and your main thrust is self defense, think of a handgun. Since you can't hunt and you cant really plink (remember 50 rounds per year) much, self defense is your main reason for owning a firearm. A shotgun doesn't require precision at self defense ranges; any old shotgun will do for that. At self defense ranges, I'd much rather use a handgun than a rifle. There is a dearth of modern handguns in India, at least a price that won't bankrupt you. Chose a decent NPB caliber, there are plenty of them. Choose a caliber that is common so you can get ammo.

I am need of some assistance - does the TR route allow one firearm per individual or one firearm per family that is/are relocating?

One firearm per licence. You need to already have a licence before you can bring the firearm in. If your wife and you both have a licence then you might be able to bring in two.

AFAIK these days only one firearm per returning citizen is allowed as per TR rules. If you don't have a valid Indian arms license, on return to India your firearm & ammunition will be impounded by customs and a receipt issued to you for the same. You will then have to get an appropriate license made before they (customs) will release the firearm (& ammo) and stamp the license as required. Not sure but there may be a time period within which this has to be done. Once again not sure at what rate/ if at all they will charge you demurrage/ storage charges for the time period it stays impounded with them.

Since you cannot sell what you import through this route, the prevailing market prices in India should not affect your decision on what to import. What should is your intended use and since you can import only one (per returning citizen) the flexibility of the firearm would be of some consideration especially since you are thinking about a teotwawki scenario as well!

Shotgun: any popular model pump action 12 ga shotty with screw in chokes and an extra rifled barrel for slugs (min barrel length 20"). Advantages - cheap, good firepower, flexible application (home-defence as well as wide application for survival in a teotwawki scenario), easy availability of imported as well as domestically produced ammo, if maintained well will last forever, choice of popular model should mean plenty of spares as well as after-market accessories.

Handgun: popular model semi-auto with interchangeable barrel/slide/magazine for .380 ACP, .32 ACP and .22 LR. If you look hard enough you may be able to get one which can double up as a carbine (removable stock and longer .22LR barrel). If this was not India and .45 ACP & 9mm were not on the PB list then the 2 calibres I'd have picked would have been either one of the two with a .22LR conversion (barrel/slide/mag) - but this is India so those two are out.

Rifle: The best rifle for teotwawki/ general plinking would be a .22 LR.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Sensible Abhijeet, esp the part about the 45! Pity, cant happen
What if- the bloke successfully imported 1 firearm, all hunky dory, then the travel bug bit him and he went out of country again? allowed to keep the imported firearm in India, per normal?
or
1.Allowed re-export-this would really hypothetical-I wouldnt wish SO MUCH paper work on any one-first the import, then the export.
2. need to deposit

Info appreciated

NO NO, I hate standing in queue, like any sensible dilli wallah.

Thank you xl_target, eljefe, and mundaire for that detailed post. I will get acquainted with the procedure at the India end, meanwhile, I will have to start the procedure for the US too. Will keep you all updated on this thread.

Please do, full_circle