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Government admits illicit firearms are better than IOF junk

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:37 am
by mehulkamdar
http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/08/stories ... 630300.htm

Focus on curtailing gunrunning racket

Sophisticated firearms being supplied in bulk from Munger in Bihar is cause of concern for the police. Devesh K. Pandey finds out more...




The big gunrunning racket smashed by the Crime Branch of the Delhi police recently is a grim reminder of how the merchants of death have easy access to handmade and sophisticated firearms being supplied in bulk from Munger in Bihar.

According to the local administration, over a dozen licensed firearms manufacturing units were operating in Munger at one point in time.

But these gradually closed down leaving scores of labourers unemployed. As the "skilled" workers were not rehabilitated, they began setting up illegal firearms manufacturing units. During a visit to Munger, the Crime Branch discovered that some of these workers had even taken loans from the Government and used the money to buy machines required for weapon manufacturing.

It is suspected that every month, hundreds of finished sophisticated firearms are churned out by these units. To manufacture a single firearm requires at least 10 skilled labourers, each an expert at carving a particular part of the weapon. As the so-called factory of firearms is run from ten houses, it becomes difficult for the police to seize all the manufacturing tools in one go. Interestingly, family members of the workers also lend a helping hand in the business.

Senior police officers are astonished over the quality of firearms of .32 and 9 mm bore being supplied from Munger. "They are in many ways superior to the firearms manufactured in Government ordinance factories. They are better in terms of precision as each part of the weapon, from the barrel to hammer, is carved out with great finesse. It becomes evident even from the sound the weapon makes when the trigger is pressed," said a police officer, adding that the bullet ejection mechanism in these firearms is pretty similar to that of Beretta.
Such sophisticated firearms are sold by the manufacturers to local dealers for about Rs. 15,000 each.

The local dealers are contacted by out-station gunrunners at whose instance orders are placed. Usually, the local dealer sells the firearm for about Rs. 25,000 which is then re-sold for over Rs. 35,000 and then in the open market for Rs. 60,000 to even Rs. 1 lakh. In case of special and regular clients with criminal background, some concessions are made.

The popularity of Munger weapons is so widespread that even criminal elements operating in western Uttar Pradesh and Delhi opt for them. The police have found that the firearms are also making their way into the hands of naxals operating in Bihar, Jharkhand, Orissa and Madhya Pradesh.

The police have a strong suspicion that those involved in this flourishing gunrunning trade have a strong network of informers who keep track of the movements of the enforcement agencies and tip them off well before raids are carried out.

In such circumstances, the police of the States concerned will have to put in a coordinated effort to check gunrunning which in turn would automatically bring about a drop in the crime rate.

:lol:

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:00 pm
by cauvery-cowboy
Mehul,

After seeing the stuff churned out by the IOF, it is very likely that these 'cottage industry' handguns are superior.

I remember sometime ago Jonah had submitted some photographs of handguns and they looked really good.

BTW the I. O. Factories are ISO 9001 certified. :roll:

Cheers,

Marc

Cherian's Blacksmith!!

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:36 pm
by eljefe
NO wonder Cherian trusts his local blacksmith to make him a better cylinder for the IOF 22!
ISO is the easiest QC modality that can be bought!!
Best
Axx

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:02 pm
by Sakobav
ISO 9001 ratings means that some one has standardized procedures and documentation for all aspects of manufacturing and related services. As they say quality is build into processes and same quality is produced consistently. I am not sure who the auditors are for IOF and whether civilian line is also certified in same manner, or methods and tools used for checking the specs on produced parts.
Having been part of ISO process in one of the biggest semi conductor manufacturer firms in the world, it was a challenge enforcing and implementing these standards. COnsequences of not having such standards in place were loss of market share and law suits running into millions of dollars.
There is no such pressure on IOF so yes they may be ISO certified its lot of poundage of paper work and task orders etc doesnt mean it translates to quality and who is complaining ? End Customers are soldiers and civilians rest we all know the plight. Elite units import weapons from outside and same goes for civvys with connections and money bags.
Sorry I am playing like a old broken record again
navdeep

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:53 pm
by mehulkamdar
Friends,

In the USA, artisans like these would have been able to find funding to make limited production handguns like Tussey Custom or someone similar. In India there is talk of cracking down on them and destroying their skills which the government admits are vastly superior to those of it's fat cat workers in sarkari factories. Is it just people like us who see something horribly wrong with the system?

Am I wrong in assuming that if there were fine guns being made in India all of us who posted on the 6 gun dream list would have had at least one if not more Indian manufactured gun on the list? I wish someone would tell the jokers in Delhi this in a voice that makes them listen. :x

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:32 pm
by penpusher
Mehul,
From what I remember,the workers at the IOF factory in Kolkata were paid as per the no. of rifles produced by them.What this would do to the quality of the weapons produced ,is anybodies guess.I don't know if the same practise is being followed even now.

The illegal gun manufacturers have to survive in a mkt where they have to compete with other manufacturers and with foreign brands.Also those buying the weapons are not going to go to the consumer court if the weapon does not fire.The matter would be settled in a rudimentary but far more effective manner :) This probably accounts for the good quality.However not all are well made.Some are in fact crude affairs.From what I have heard, the kattas are gurranteed to fire a specific no. cartridges(2,5,10 etc).If the weapon explodes after more cart's have been fired than the weapon is gurranteed to fire,the user is responsible for the consequences , if any.

Take care,
penpusher

corporatisation of Ordinance factories

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:59 am
by piyushpdsingh
The Hindi daily Dainik Jagran dated 07.08.2006,carried following news item "With the idea of sppedy modernisation of ordinance factories goverment is thinking of possibilities of corpotasiation ofthese important industries.By this they eill get the status of public sector undertakings "(translated from hindi).
Hope this will make them more accountable towards wasting their funds in manufacturing substandard products which we are forced to buy because of restrictions.

IOF

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:39 pm
by penpusher
http://www.indiadefence.com/INSAS.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/t-72.htm(T-72 barrels made by IOF bursting due to improper tempering)

http://www.indiadefence.com/OFB.htm

Take care,
penpusher

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:05 pm
by eljefe
Wonder what hell our boys went through to win the wars they did for us!
God bless their sacrifices.
Axx

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:10 pm
by mehulkamdar
Frankly, the so and sos at the IOF need to be tried for treason. This is simply unpardonable. Yes, the bravery of our soldiers means more and more every time we see how badly they have been let down.

Mehul

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:39 am
by Vikram
mehulkamdar wrote:Frankly, the so and sos at the IOF need to be tried for treason. This is simply unpardonable. Yes, the bravery of our soldiers means more and more every time we see how badly they have been let down.Mehul

What you said. :evil: :evil:

Re: IOF

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:50 pm
by penpusher
There has been some recent comments about the IOF,so I thought to revive this post.

Here is something more about the IOF

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms. ... sid=196901

Its a lot of BS from the IOF chaps mixed with some confessions about their own incompetence.Throwing a weapon 100 ft.I have still to see anything like that being done.No weapon would survive this.Would cost anybody who did it,his job.As usual the attempt is to shift blame on to the end user.

Take care,
penpusher

Re: IOF

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:35 pm
by mundaire
It has taken 10 years and four upgradations for the Ordnance Factory Board to arrive at the conclusion that the 5.56 mm INSAS rifle manufactured at the Rifle Factory, Ishapore, has few takers in the international market.


I have heard that the Indian Army was initially reluctant to switch to the INSAS as well, they were keener on going for a cheaper and more reliable AK variant being bought from some East European country. But they were forced into accepting the IOFB INSAS!

Does anyone have more info on whether this is what happened? Or is it simply one of those rumours floating around?

Reading the article one gets the feeling that rejection in the export market is an important driver for IOFB to improve the INSAS - I would have thought that body bags of soldiers, killed in part due to faulty equipment would be all the incentive any humane person would have needed to fix the problem! You know moral corruption has scaled all possible heights, when a couple of extra bucks are more important than human lives!:evil:

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Re: IOF

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:55 pm
by penpusher
The INSAS is an attempt by the OFB to justify its miserable existense and to find a solution to a problem that did not exist.It seems that the Indian Army was satisfied with the Steyr AUG(http://www.steyr-aug.com/webbbs/forum.htm),but wanted some improvements. The IOFB ,as is their habit, promised to deliver and as they have always done,failed ( they had done the same in case of battlefield radars for locating enemy Arti.The army had to pay the price for that in Kargil conflict when faced with Pakis who had these radars)The Indian Army wanted the barrel change faciilty of the Steyr AUG that enables the rifle to be configured for a variety of roles.The INSAS does not have it.There is nothing original about the INSAS.It's just a mish mash of ideas that might have worked had the IOF the ability to produce them to acceptable quality standards( their knowledge about metallurgy seems to equal my knowledge about rocket science....zit)[/align]

The 5.56 ammo of the IOF could not reach the required velocity, initially.Its claimed that this has been sorted out.The IOF infact claims that their ammo is far superior to the NATO 5.56 ammo :lol:

The purpose of having the same family of firearms that could be used for all purposes(rifle,LMG and carbine) using the same ammo and thus simplifying the process of maintainince and supply of ammo has been defeated by the IOF introducing special 5.56 ammo with reduced velocity to be used in the 5.56 carbine.The IOF has spent 20 years and millions of rupees perfecting or attempting to perfect a weapon system,that is still not free of bugs,when the Indian govt could have easily bought a perfected weapon at a fraction of the cost and manufactured them in India.Even now,not all the personnel in the Armed forces have INSAS rifles. Tell the IOF chaps to make a wheel and they will start out with a square piece of wood and then set up a committee that would conclude that the best wheel design would be oval and it should be made from stone.

Take care,
penpusher

Re: IOF

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:35 pm
by Ranjeet Singh
penpusher, Can understand the deep dislike for the IOF folks, but then those guys don't attract the best talent as well right?

Guess the best metallurgy engineers from India are selling tooth-pastes after doing an MBA or writing software code.. :mrgreen:

Well, doesn't justify the state of affairs..even after the 5th pay commission and all the other facilites the Armed forces are not a attractive option..

Not trying to mislead the discussion..just wanted to share my thoughts..

Regards
Ranjeet