Indians For Guns

captrakshitsharma wrote:if i had the dough lying spare i would had picked it in a heart beat.....

Though this rifle is made by H&H when you do get the dough and are in the market for a gun/rifle just remember i) Not everything marked H&H was made by H&H. ii) Also there was time when they churned out some poor quality stuff as well (some members gasp and swoon at this blasphemy ).

winnie_the_pooh wrote:

captrakshitsharma wrote:if i had the dough lying spare i would had picked it in a heart beat.....

Though this rifle is made by H&H when you do get the dough and are in the market for a gun/rifle just remember i) Not everything marked H&H was made by H&H. ii) Also there was time when they churned out some poor quality stuff as well (some members gasp and swoon at this blasphemy ).

Winnie,

How much do you know about H&H's and London gun trade of 19th and 20th century?


Let me explain

1) Holland and Holland did retail Boxlocks made by Webley in Birmingham and Husqvarna Mauser 98's but these guns were marked "Shot and Regulated by H&H" and people think they are Holland and Holland weapons.

2)When it comes to grades like Royal etc they were and have always been made by Holland and Holland in house.

3)Holland and Holland's did see some hard times in 1960's and 70's and most of English gun trade was struggling then and that was the time when the quality of guns did suffer some and most of guns in India are Pre-war so they are mostly top quality ,that is the reason that at most of the auction houses in London ,Guns from India are seen as breath of fresh air because at most of the auctions same guns have been exchanging hands over and over again and thats kinda boring for collectors.

4) I have yet to see anything made by H&H of poor quality some of them might have some flaws here and there and aren't what is expected of H&H but they are not poor by any standards believe me i have seen a few.

The rifle in question here was made in 1931 basically golden period of London gunmaking and as far as I am concerned it is a very good example of Holland and Holland bolt gun.

If they did not maintain a proper quality control they would have vanished into thin air like most London Gunmakers.

Bespoke wrote:How much do you know about H&H's and London gun trade of 19th and 20th century?

Zilch,nada,zero.....Kindly educate me O great one.

O great one, can you tell me something about the Dominion shotguns, rifles built on military surplus P 1914 actions with aluminium bottom metals and the time line for the 'Golden Era' of best London made guns.

Bespoke wrote:"Shot and Regulated by H&H"

Ah yes,right from BSA made Lee Speeds to Winchester rifles and a whole lot of other makers in between.Probably a good way to make money at the cost of just putting those words on the firearm.

winnie_the_pooh wrote:

Bespoke wrote:How much do you know about H&H's and London gun trade of 19th and 20th century?

Zilch,nada,zero.....Kindly educate me O great one.

.

Then that is a good reason reconsider twice before making tall claims like poor quality.

winnie_the_pooh wrote:O great one, can you tell me something about the Dominion shotguns, rifles built on military surplus P 1914 actions with aluminium bottom metals and the time line for the 'Golden Era' of best London made guns.

Lets us see,

"Dominion" shotguns were called grade "C" no "3" and got name Dominion in 1934 and as name suggests it was made to be used in the Dominion's of the empire.It is a back action rounded sidelock and has much more strength than bar action sidelocks ,It was not ornate like Royals but was still made to order with top of the line materials,some people regard it as one of the strongest action from Holland and Holland and they still command and deserves good respect and price.

David Winks, who worked for Holland & Holland for many decades regarded the Dominion back lock models as “robust, simple and well-balanced, one of my favourite guns”. ( Donald Dallas )

You dont even know what was "Golden Era" and what was "Wartime",The Military surplus p 1914 you mentioned was to help the war effort for Military use.

Contracts Place for P1914 on 23 June 1939 are follows


J. Purdey 34,847

Skimin & Wood 41,331

Westley Richards 36,196

W W Greener 39,418

Holland & Holland 42,408

Holland & Holland 136,760

Cogswell & Harrison 14,323

Boss & Co. 20,344

Parker Hale 21,264

J. Purdey 433

Now you will say Oh Boss& Co and J.Purdey made rifles on P1914 during war time and so they are poor quality gunmakers!

Quoted from Internet

During both World Wars and the Korean War, a number of Lee-Enfield rifles were also modified as sniper rifles. During the later war, the result was the No. 4 Mk I (T). Standard No. 4 rifles, selected for their accuracy during factory tests, were modified by the addition of a wooden cheek-piece, and telescopic sight mounts designed to accept a No. 32 3.5x telescopic sight. This particular sight progressed through three marks with the Mk 1 introduced in 1942, the Mk 2 in 1943 and finally the Mk 3 in 1944 (later re-designated the L1A1).[2] Holland and Holland, the famous British sporting gun manufacturers, converted many of these sniper rifles, along with BSA and Long Branch in Canada. These rifles were extensively employed in various conflicts until the late 1960s. An updated 7.62x51mm NATO version was in use as late as the Falklands War of 1982.

For your better understanding and for sake of not misleading people on the forum in future.I would like to recommend a book called "An Armourer's Perspective: .303 No.4 (T) Sniper Rifle and the Holland and Holland Connection" - Written by Peter Laidler with Ian Skennerton.

winnie_the_pooh wrote:

Bespoke wrote:"Shot and Regulated by H&H"

Ah yes,right from BSA made Lee Speeds to Winchester rifles and a whole lot of other makers in between.Probably a good way to make money at the cost of just putting those words on the firearm.

Why not they earned those words!

Thanks Winnie and Bespoke
Due to your interaction, I learnt a bit more. Thanks.

Bespoke,

When you wake up from your hubris perhaps you will notice an important bit,Dominion's were made by W&S and sold by H&H under their name.

The NO4 Mk1 (T) were No4 Mk1 rifles that were considered to be more accurate than the others and sent to H&H.All No4 Mk1 (T)'s were worked on by H&H.

P1914's were ALL made in USA.During the war they were generally relegated to secondary roles.Some were used as sniper rifles.

The military surplus P1914 actions used to make rifles by H&H were not for the war effort.There are no surplus rifles during a war

For a part of their history H&H was nothing but a retailer of guns made by others. Sorry if I have upset you by any remark I may have made about your beloved H&H devta I have nothing further to say on this thread.

Winnie,

I am not surprised because from start that you don't have any Idea what you are talking about I expected a completely absurd answer and thats exactly what I got and frankly I do not even know why am I wasting my time replying to such a post.

1) Dominion's were made by W&S right and I just got off the phone with someone has spent last 4 decades in double rifles in London and when I mentioned this to him he asked me to thank you for educating him.Collectors spending thousands of dollars on Dominions are fools and do not know what they are buying , every now and then people come out with such claims but people who matter i.e Collectors and enthusiasts know what Dominions are.

2) I would like to see a picture of the P1914 surplus H&H me as well as collectors or people in trade are completely unaware of it.

3) So all P1914 were made in U.S and British archives and war records lie wow!!! thank you for your marvelous discovery.

Thank you for your time.

P.S Next time you want to make a point please back it up a relevant evidence or I would suggest you to restrict you expertise to IOF.

A correction,the vast majority of the p1914 rifles were contracted out to Winchester,Remington and Eddystone as the British manufacturers could not meet the production demands.Was about to correct it but Bespoke had beaten me to it.As I have said,I will not post anything further on this thread.

Bespoke wrote:
P.S Next time you want to make a point please back it up a relevant evidence or I would suggest you to restrict you expertise to IOF.

Bespoke

For a bloke who wants to pass off as an authority on bespoke weapons....almost all of the info that you have that you have thrown up is off the web ....you could have saved your self from being but even there looks like you screwed up..... in trying to give it an authentic touch you have actually done a very poor copy-cut- paste job....
hmmm dont worry I am not going to take the bait

Sanjay wrote: you have actually done a very poor copy-cut- paste job....
]

Thank you for your Compliment.I don't need to prove myself to anyone.

Sanjay wrote: hmmm dont worry I am not going to take the bait

Good for you.

Jeez! This is supposed to be a 'For Sale' thread guys! This one's leapfrogged into oblivion!! Bespoke & Winnie lets put a lid on this!

Ya'll have a nice day!

Since this has been split from the for sale thread,I will not feel guilty posting further.

Bespoke,

If you think that some one has made a mistake,by all means point it out.Ill tempered remarks coupled with an obvious condescending attitude is not likely to be appreciated by anybody.Especially when backed with a non existent but claimed 'knowledge'.

1.You say that all guns sold by H&H were made by them.You then quoted some fellow who you claim to be some one in the English gun trade for the last 40 years to bolster this argument.

How about this http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?p=46059

Webley & Scott not only made their own guns but were one of the largest trade makers and made guns for many so-called `gunmakers`. H&Hs `Dominion` model was built by W&S.

2.Then you claimed that H&H made P 1914 rifles as their contribution to the war effort and gave some figures.I was able to find the source of your 'knowledge' http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/we ... m1917.html

You have omitted to mention that the contract was for " Conversion of No. 3 Mk. 1* rifles to WRS" and not manufacture of new rifles.

Infact after Vickers failed to produce in required numbers the contract for the manufacture of the Pattern 1914 rifles went to US companies namely Winchester,Remington and Eddystone who produced over a million of them.

As far as the No4 Mk1(T) is concerned try this site http://www.milsurps.com/ It has more knowledge on the topic ( and also the p1914 and M1917) than you would ever need.

3.Re. the cheapo stuff churned out by your beloved company,I will try to find links to satisfy you.

4.Re the Golden era of the British gun manufacture some reckon it to have ended with the outbreak of the Ist WW.

Respect is not earned overnight . You need to invest time and effort. This is what penpusher has done. You really deserve a round of applause. Hail WTP hail.

winnie_the_pooh wrote:Since this has been split from the for sale thread,I will not feel guilty posting further.

Bespoke,

If you think that some one has made a mistake,by all means point it out.Ill tempered remarks coupled with an obvious condescending attitude is not likely to be appreciated by anybody.Especially when backed with a non existent but claimed 'knowledge'.

Winnie,

I'll say like this you have not been a very polite person to some on the forum ,yes in a more diplomatic manner but I am not a very diplomatic person.I do not have to prove my knowledge to anyone.

winnie_the_pooh wrote: 1.You say that all guns sold by H&H were made by them.You then quoted some fellow who you claim to be some one in the English gun trade for the last 40 years to bolster this argument.


How about this http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?p=46059

]Webley & Scott not only made their own guns but were one of the largest trade makers and made guns for many so-called `gunmakers`. H&Hs `Dominion` model was built by W&S.

If you think I would boast on someone else's achievement then I am sorry to say you do not know me at all.It was merely to state the fact that some of people who are in this trade do not agree with you.

I have mentioned this earlier that ,people have claimed that that W&S built Dominions for H&H and It is an age old argument but it is simply not true.Price never lies people can lie records can lie etc but Price never lie's and Price is of Dominions still do command premium prices I think that is a good enough indicator.This being said It is not very uncommon for best gun makers sometimes use freelance action makers or barrel makers etc.

winnie_the_pooh wrote: 2.Then you claimed that H&H made P 1914 rifles as their contribution to the war effort and gave some figures.I was able to find the source of your 'knowledge' http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/we ... m1917.html

You have omitted to mention that the contract was for " Conversion of No. 3 Mk. 1* rifles to WRS" and not manufacture of new rifles.

Infact after Vickers failed to produce in required numbers the contract for the manufacture of the Pattern 1914 rifles went to US companies namely Winchester,Remington and Eddystone who produced over a million of them.

As far as the No4 Mk1(T) is concerned try this site http://www.milsurps.com/ It has more knowledge on the topic ( and also the p1914 and M1917) than you would ever need.

Yes that was source of my post and I am sorry I should have read carefully and thank you for pointing that out ,this is the reason why I refrain to post on topics like Military guns, Air guns etc because that is not my field of interest.

winnie_the_pooh wrote: 3.Re. the cheapo stuff churned out by your beloved company,I will try to find links to satisfy you.

I am looking forward for it

winnie_the_pooh wrote: 4.Re the Golden era of the British gun manufacture some reckon it to have ended with the outbreak of the Ist WW.

[/quote]

Yes the most of patents and inventions in British gun trade were made before WW I but the golden era continued till late 1930's some of best craftsmen and engravers worked between WWI and WWII.The guns manufactured after WWI and WWII command highest prices.

Again I will like to mention that I do not want to prove anything to anyone but since some people have been asking for source of my knowledge I have been studying about British gun trade from various books and interacting with people in trade and practically examining British double guns whenever I get chance.

Dunno about the golden era of gunmaking, but the golden era of shooting did end after the WW1.

This has been a very informative thread and comes as a breath of fresh air after many not-so-interesting (for me) posts on IFG.

All we need to do is keep the air clean and without malice.

Whatever the source, both of you know more than me.

Learning from the internet isnt necessarily a bad thing. (as long as the source is reliable; but then the same holds true for books). One has to learn somewhere.

I have seen a trend here that if someone quotes from the internet, it isnt seen with a lot of respect. What i appreciate is the fact that someone has spent time to go through the internet where mr. google gives c@#p websites results 90% of the time.

Keep it coming guys and thanks for the education.