What guns to start a buying spree with

[mehulkamdar]

Pran,

You can PM Curious House which is the login ID of Pradeep SIngh Parihar here for any information on his company's products. As far as my Knight ML is concerned, let me know by PM what pictures you would like - breech area etc and I'll be happy to take and e-mail them to you.

Vikram,

Hope to decide very soon. Too many nudges in the direction of the Gamba.

Cheers!

[Satpal_S]

Mehul:

For shooting upland birds, one word. Buy a Beretta 686 Pigeon grade in whatever grade 1,2,3,4 you fancy.

Being a low profile Monoblock Barrels Boxlock, the gun has a very low profile, delicate balance and lightweight. Handles sweet as a SXS yet much better for hunting, skeet and occasional Trap. Very strong, a breeze to repair and parts/spare chokes available easily.

Re: Gamba, it is a nice gun, but should you have a breakdown or crack the stock, big time trouble repairing. With Beretta after 15000+ rounds, my guns foreend cracked. Beretta shipped a matching foreend in a couple of days. My gun is a basic 686 Onyx, still had to send Picture of the Butt end to get matching patterned wood on foreend. Had it been grade 3 or higher, gun has to be shipped to Beretta to fit a matching piece.

So be careful, before you lay down your money on a one of a kind gun like the Gamba. Unless you want a collector and not a shooter.

Have fun!!

Satpal

[Sakobav]

Satpal

Mehul and Beretta twain shall never meet..:>

Rgds

[mehulkamdar]

Satpal,

I saw some Beretta U/O Pigeon Grade IV guns at a store in Lincolnwood recently when I went there along with Inder and the first thing that struck me was how badly the rib seemed to have been attached to both barrels. The salesman showing me the gun tried saying that that was grease but when I felt that portion with my thumb, there was no grease on it at all. The gun, a $ 3000 plus gold inlaid piece, was waiting for the barrels to come apart at some time or the other. I have not seen that kind of poor quality from any gunmaker in a long time, except, possibly in the case of some of the cheap Turkish doubles which Gander Mountain and other stores sell fro $ 400 these days. There have also been some very adverse comments on the Nitro Express forums by several advanced shooters of new Beretta guns failing to eject after just a few hundred rounds. Considering the mess that Beretta have made of their Sako subsidiary as well - Sako never had any problems under any pre Beretta owner - I am going to give them a pass. I have seen vastly cheaper guns than these with a significantly greater level of fit and finish. Junk under a fancy name is still junk and it is sad that Beretta have come to this after making some very nice guns in the past.

Cheers!

[Satpal_S]

Mehul:

FYI, Beretta has Monoblock Barrels, barrels being screwed in a monoblock at the breech (much stronger and lighter than a conventional brazed barrel). Ribs are merely attached/lightly soldered to the side, redundant for any practical purpose.

A Monoblock Barrelled gun will never come apart as you say. Even if a rib is to come off it can be easily soldered on back. What you saw was a bad piece at best.

Beretta's, Brownings, Krieghoff's are the guns I see shooting 100's of rounds at ranges every weekend. Nobody ever seems to have major complaints with any of these guns. Minor problems always happen with any make, if one shoots 3000-5000+ rounds a year.

Beretta quality too seems have improved/or the same. I recently shopped for a skeet/hunting gun and plan to buy Beretta 682 with adjustable stock in 12 gauge from Bill Paxton. I also am getting a Benelli Montefeltro short recoil action autoloader 20 gauge to be my upland gun.

This was after extensive research and talks with lot of fellow shooters. I am no big fan of high grade guns (grade 2,3,4), but when it comes to the basics (heavy shooting and hunting), Beretta and Benelli will deliver. Very confident on this count!!!

Have fun,

Satpal

PS: Most big name guns Purdeys, H&H or whatever else they might be are in my opinion conversation pieces. Fit for driven game shooting at best or at their worst a piece of jewellery, decorating a snobs guest room, period.

[mehulkamdar]

Mehul:

PS: Most big name guns Purdeys, H&H or whatever else they might be are in my opinion conversation pieces. Fit for driven game shooting at best or at their worst a piece of jewellery, decorating a snobs guest room, period.

Satpal,

A question for you - how many Purdeys or H&Hs have you owned and shot? To tell you the truth, I haven't owned one, the best gun in my family was a Rigby sidelock, but I do know of relatives and friends of my family who own very fine guns in India and in the USA. And the guns are shot regularly. There are also several members on the Nitro Express forums who own several of these guns and shoot and hunt with them.

Right now I cannot afford to buy a Best gun but if I could, I would not hesitate to go to David MacKay Brown and order a pair of guns from him, and shoot them. I have shot fine guns owned by several people both in India and in the USA on several occasions and there is no way except in someone's imagination that a Beretta, even an SSO series shotgun for example would equal a top London gun. BTW the SSO Berettas are jnot made in house by Beretta anymore but for them by Famars - perhaps, that is where their quality has improved. As far as your statement of a gun "never coming apart" is concerned, let's just say that I am not the only one to disagree with this. The gun that would never come apart has not yet been invented. Yes, the Swedes made some superbly strong guns in their Caprinus designs but not even they were indestructible.

I prefer to use my own logic and experience with guns in making a decision, not to base my purchasing on ad copy. And, if I need to look for advice, I know where to reach some of the world's foremost experts on fine guns. Some of them even post here as my friends and at my invitation.

This post was specifically to get some opinions and decide between some guns that I have seen here, in and around the Chicago suburbs, that I like. And I told like it was with the guns that I saw - the Beretta in particular. If what I saw does not meet with your approval, then what do I do? I guess this makes you unhappy, I hope you would concede that those who have bought new Berettas that have had ejection problems - check out the shotgun threads at the Nitro Express forums if you like - and those who bought stainless Sako 75s whose barrels exploded (prompting lawsuits, mind you) are even more unhappy than you are.

Let's just agree to disagree on this.

Cheers!

[penpusher]

Talking of London's best(this will surely get Mehul's BP up) there is a fellow in Patiala who has a WR shotgun,one of a pair owned by Bhupinder Singh,the then Maharaja of Patiala.It was presented to the fellows grandfather by the Maharaja (this will now cool down Mehul ) after the barrel of the other shotgun exploded.The Maharaja then seems to have made a habit of gifting away the WR products that he owned.

penpusher

[Sakobav]

penpusher

Wr = Westley Richards?

Rgds

[Vikram]

penpusher,

Though Westley Richards had a London shop, they were predominantly Birmingham based.These days it is managed by Simon Clode,WC's son.

http://www.westleyrichards.com/firm/history4.html

Here, they openly acknowledge the fact that guns from India salvaged WR.

Best-
Vikram

[Grumpy]

The fact that barrel are produced on the monoblock principle has nothing to do with the fitting of the rib. The rib is soldered onto the barrel just as it is with any other gun. Nor is the monoblock principle particularly strong.....if it was so great why are Berettas best guns, the SOs, built using the demiblock system ? `Demiblock` construction is the same as the chopper lump system used for British best sidelocks. As far as it matters, the term `monoblock` just means that the barrels are sleeved onto the chamber stubs. Get a new pair of barrels for a gun from a best London maker and they will cost around £10,000. Have new barrels sleeved on and it will cost about £2000 from those same makers.
Monoblock construction is used because it is an efficient method - both in terms of construction and cost. It isn`t the best system of construction nor is it the strongest.

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

I have never said anything was bad with W-R's quality but the fact remains that the company's owner is an a$%e. As Vikram rightly points out they are based in Birmingham. And, as far as boxlocks are concerned, the concept has been refined significantly by T R White to, some experts say, perfection. If I had the money, I wouldn't buy a W-R because no matter how good a product may be, the seller's attitude also coutns. I also try my best and steer buyers away from them and get a considerable amount of satisfaction from doing this.

Grumpy,

Thanks for the explanation. I did see what I saw and reported here with my own eyes and the other quality posts on the Nitro Express forums also are there for anyone who wishes to check them out. Again, your expert opinion reinforces my suggestion that no one needs to get carried away by ad copy.

Thanks and best wishes to everyone!

[Satpal_S]

Mehul:
A strong gun does not imply a gun, that will never come apart. Stick a lump of grease/wadding/20 gauge shells in front of a 12 gauge fire it, best or no best grade---explodes like a grenade. So even mentioning this that other people think along these terms is implying superiority of one's own knowledge.

RE: People having problems with Berettas, 75% or more people on the range do not know enough about their guns. Target guns do require heavy maintenance, which if they don't get they malfunction. BTW, when you next time meet somebody whose Beretta ejectors malfunction, refer them to me. I will be more than delighted to buy their gun cheap and fix the ejectors myself.

RE:Monoblock barrels being a efficient system in terms of cost/strength/efficiency is true. It delivers a nice gun for under $ 1500 new for hunting models with target models costing 2500+.

Take this kind of money to one of the best gun makers, I bet the snobs will ridicule and throw that person out.

Re:My being seduced by Ad copies, my guns will see 5000+ rounds in their first year. If they fail, Beretta will cover. With pedestrian grade guns parts/gunsmithing is cheap/plentiful. Turnaround time couple of years ago for a cracked stock less than a week.

Get this kinda service with a best grade, maybe in a world of illusions.

RE:My approval for anybody's purchases. I am way too busy to worry about what people are buying, or if they take my recommendations in personal manner.

I live in a world of present reality not grand illusions, guns are just implements. Cost along with quality is a major consideration. If it weren't true, Beretta, Browning etc.. would't be world class companies. They would have gone the way of the English Best in the pages of History and Illusions in the minds of those who choose to daydream!!

In a bit of hurry, almost 7:55, time to go to work.

Have fun, buy what the heart desires, that is what keeps us happy!!

Satpal

[mehulkamdar]

Satpal,

Surely this post is BS and you know it. A new gun that someone has bought malfunctions and you want it for as good as free? I guess the buyers would prefer warranty service or refunds instead unless you were willing to take the guns at the price they paid.

Again, my question is one that you have NOT answered. How many best guns have you owned or shot? Short of replying on this this is simply a waste of bandwidth. You are NOT a dealer in fine guns, a historian or someone with the background to debate the very important point that Grumpy has raised - the best Famars built Berettas come with demiblock barrels, not monoblocks. And, when you talk about other companies' service, I would suggest that you show me a single post on any gun owners' or shooters forum anywhere that shows that Renato Gamba have been deficient. I have told you where to look for this information on Beretta products.

There is hardly any risk of my taking anything in a "personal manner" as you suggest. If I do need a personal suggestion, as I have pointed out, I know whom to ask. That said, this being a public forum, I have to take issue with BS when it is presented as fact. People vote with their wallets and when their wallets pay $ 120,000 for a Purdey over hesitating to pay $ 3000 for a Beretta, that is evidence enough of quality and value. Sure, someone might like his little Scion XC but that does not make it a Rolls Royce.

[Satpal_S]

Mehul:

Now that I am at Coffee break will answer you.

Daydreams, Ignorance, Illusions of knowledge, that is what some people get spending too much time on Internet forums.

My B/S, try a simple test, take any lightweight SXS with double triggers and English stock any working gun will do. (Similar working to most fine guns except quality)

Shoot skeet my kind 200+ rounds over the weekend. With the Broad sighting plane, and double triggers see what you hit on skeet doubles. Try on trap also. See how much your shoulders hurt, when the light gun with English stock recoils on you. When you shoulder heals in a week+ go to phase 2 of my test.

Take a Beretta/Browning O/U Single trigger Skeet gun same 200+ rounds. Use Browning if Beretta is not Kosher for you. You count your score and be the judge. Ask your shoulders too which gun is better!!!

Coming to snobbery let me recall a few incidents.

1984 Roits this big Snob neighbor of ours, borrowed my Uncle's Remington 870 Pump to secure his family. He had so little faith in his Matched pair of Best Grade Woodwards.

1992 was invited over at a company sponsored estate shoot in the UK, Snobs, Big name guns, all the works etc. Noticed one thing, how easy were the driven Pheasant to shoot "shot mostly on the rise", and how much back patting and "nice shot"/ "wah-ji-wah" was going on. How greedy and A** kissing the game keepers and the paid hosts were, a total put up show. Yes I did shoot a few "Snob grade" smokepoles at this staged event. However, I hunted with a borrowed Browning Citori. My Peasant class gun shot better than most so called snobs with sub-par shooting skills.

So no need to waste money on a piece of "functional jewelry"/"Snob grade smokepoles".

I will spend my money on Ammo and range fees to develop my skills.

RE: Scion versus Rolls-Royce, Toyota makers of Scion is the best automotive group in the world, set to be # 1 soon.

Rolls Royce/Jaguars etc. British names that have been bought/sold/in-receivership/out-of-receivership, Blah-Blah etc.

Re:Voting with wallets: How many people own $120,000 Purdeys, I don't know of any. But I know 100's of people at our gun club who own $1500-3000+ range Berettas and other utilitarian guns.

Maybe in your world of Internet forums dreamers vote with their dreams for these 120K guns, not too many seem to have $120K Wallets to vote for the "Snob Grade Purdeys"!!

Ultimately shooting is just one of my so called many hobbies. I don't spend inordinate amount of time on internet forums and idle theory, so that I can appear to be knowledgeable to ignorant people who don't know any better. (Reflect on this one)

Gotta go now am at work, because in life neither guns nor hobbies pays for my House/SUV's/Education of Kids/Retirement funds etc.etc.--work pays!!
Have fun!!

Satpal

[mehulkamdar]

Satpal,

So what is this - sour grapes at not only not being able to afford to buy the best but also because you have to work for a living? Well, we all work, some just do it better than others. And yes, just because you don't know anyone who owns Purdeys or Hollands does not make them inferior to your dear beloved Berettas. As I asked you clearly - show me where there has been a single report of a Renato Gamba failing or of offering deficient service. You've been able to provide squat in response. I do not think that my question was something that required a PhD in logic to understand? And yet, what do I get in response except a string of inanities...

FYI I have shot several fine guns and have the pictures and resources to prove it. Show me where you have shot one. Short of that you're the one in a silly socialist daydream about bread and butter jobs being better than caviar in between gnashing your teeth and grumbling about working at a job you hate. I have seen your kind - I can see clearly where you're coming from.