Fire Arms of the Indian Defence Forces

[boris]

thats what everyone thinks.
recently, a decision making concept called the CLEAR model is being incorporated.
Its basically Clarify, Look, Evaluate, Act, Review.
Simple but deadly efficient.
instinctive decisions can be wrong for one might falter at any of these steps. the decisions are arrived at through this process, only you and i will take longer than them. A CQB training house is where this comes out at its best. you cant instinctively shoot at any target you see, while i might, the SF operator will have arrived at a CLEAR decision and done his job. Every other scenario that you can think of utilizes this concept.

amazing inputs sir and like you said simple but deadly,to add the navy SEALs use a method called CARVER method before taking on any mission.

more about it:
http://blog.nielskoschoreck.com/139/

its from a book called "unleash the warrior within"by richard machowicz a former navy SEAL ,the book helped me a lot in life.

[Safarigent]

hi boris, what i understand is that the CARVER method helps you choose your goals.
what you do once there is the CLEAR module.
slightly different but a good read.

[Moin.]

Safarigent, could you elaborate more on the Special Unit in the Special Forntier Force and 4 Vikas. From what I hear from Ex Paras these units have volunteers from mostly the Parachute Regiment and are trained to carry out covert operations. These guys are the cream of SF in the IA.
P.S: While there is so much media hype around the US Navy Selas, the secretive SAS hardly any mention is made of the SF from Israel and India. Two forces who have faced active combat and insurgency and cross border terrorism since the last few decades and their SF have proven their mettle time and again.
Thank You and my apologies for digressing from the subject in the thread.

[spin_drift]

could you elaborate more on the Special Unit in the Special Forntier Force

As far as remember the now known as Special Forntier Force was earlier know is Establishment 22 or E22 and was created after the Sino-Indian War and was largely made up of Tibetan refugees. The 'Vikas regiments' or SFF battalions, it is not made up of tibetans but exclusively recruits Indians volunteering from Indian Army units and i also read somewhere (can't find the link now) that the Vikas regiments also act the muscle for RAW (but i could be wrong on this)

More details are available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Frontier_Force

[Safarigent]

The sff was raised for ops in tibet. A lot of tibetans volunteer for it and recently there was a tibetan officer who reached the rank of dapon,or brigadier to you and me.
Its not under the mod, but under home ministry so you are right that it is used for a lot of RAW ops.
They had also undertaken an operation in the guise of an expedition to climb a mountain and had placed a surveillance device on the peak of some mountain or thereabouts. Had to go looking for it also later when its signal was lost.
These are b***s to the w**l warriors who are parachute trained and think nothing of going for a lovely evening stroll in areas and conditions where we wouldnt last an hour.
Parachute qualified. Trained also in cqb and anti hijack ops.
Indian army officers go on deputations but they dont come out for deputations.
Prashant sir would know more about them as he stays closeby to their area

[essdee1972]

Safarigent, with ref to the incidence of the surveillance device, this book gives details (posting Amazon link, I have ordered the same on an online library, it's still to come): ...

There were some sites calling Est 22 as Dalai Lama's secret army (e.g., http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/ph ... eaks-more/). Probably Chinese sponsored sites.

A good report in HT: http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 76533.aspx

[boris]

Safarigent, could you elaborate more on the Special Unit in the Special Forntier Force and 4 Vikas. From what I hear from Ex Paras these units have volunteers from mostly the Parachute Regiment and are trained to carry out covert operations. These guys are the cream of SF in the IA.
P.S: While there is so much media hype around the US Navy Selas, the secretive SAS hardly any mention is made of the SF from Israel and India. Two forces who have faced active combat and insurgency and cross border terrorism since the last few decades and their SF have proven their mettle time and again.
Thank You and my apologies for digressing from the subject in the thread.

The SFF as you know was the covert special ops unit of the R&AW initially aimed at countering China and hence was composed of many tibetan's.Around 1980 R&AW formed a special unit composed of SFF and Army Special Forces(Navy's MARCOS hadn't been formed until 1987) named the "Special Group".Until the NSG was formed Special Group was the main Counter Terrorism unit in the country.

The Special Group comes under the R&AW and was the first unit to use Tavor Assault Rifles(you will read SFF used them but it was SG as both come under the R&AW).This group doesn't have almost any Tibetans unlike the SFF,most of the volunteers are from the seven Para(SF) units of the Parachute regiment(in June 2011 a new unit 11 Para(SF) was added to the Regt. focussing on the North-East,this sector was mainly dealt by 21 Para(SF) before) and probably the Navy's MARCOS.

It is without a doubt very very secretive,famous officers include the Late Major Udai Singh of 1 Para(SF) who was a part of the Special Group,here is a link that shows the letter the CO of the Special Group wrote to his parents after he passed away.
http://majorudaisingh.com/letters/thapa.jpg

I do agree that the SEALS especially after the Bin Laden raid have been very very overhyped what is even more amazing that some of the former members are so arrogant,take for eg:

1)Former SEAL shoots a pistol:"this is the normal shooting style,now I'll show you the SEAL way of shooting" then proceeds to shoot a double tap.Everyone knows the double tap was invented by the British SAS(Australia and New Zealand also have their SF names as SAS).

And a new movie is to be released this year -"Act of Valor" which has serving SEALs in it playing the role of Navy SEALS.To this a Green Beret(US Army SF) joked-

How do you know if a person is a SEAL??
-Simple "he'll tell you himself that he is one".

Though I wont put down the fact that they are an amazing unit.Also I wont put down the greatness of the SAS as the best as these are the same people who literally invented SF tactics.

[Moin.]

could you elaborate more on the Special Unit in the Special Forntier Force

As far as remember the now known as Special Forntier Force was earlier know is Establishment 22 or E22 and was created after the Sino-Indian War and was largely made up of Tibetan refugees. The 'Vikas regiments' or SFF battalions, it is not made up of tibetans but exclusively recruits Indians volunteering from Indian Army units and i also read somewhere (can't find the link now) that the Vikas regiments also act the muscle for RAW (but i could be wrong on this)

More details are available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Frontier_Force

Thanks Spin Drift, not much information is available on these elite units of the IA on the web apart from some small discussions in the defence forums.

Regards

[Moin.]

The sff was raised for ops in tibet. A lot of tibetans volunteer for it and recently there was a tibetan officer who reached the rank of dapon,or brigadier to you and me.
Its not under the mod, but under home ministry so you are right that it is used for a lot of RAW ops.
They had also undertaken an operation in the guise of an expedition to climb a mountain and had placed a surveillance device on the peak of some mountain or thereabouts. Had to go looking for it also later when its signal was lost.
These are b***s to the w**l warriors who are parachute trained and think nothing of going for a lovely evening stroll in areas and conditions where we wouldnt last an hour.
Parachute qualified. Trained also in cqb and anti hijack ops.
Indian army officers go on deputations but they dont come out for deputations.
Prashant sir would know more about them as he stays closeby to their area

Safarigent, thanks. Was looking for some info on the Special Unit (info as provided by Boris below) within the SFF and the Vikas Regiments of RAW.Since this does not fall under the MOD and under RAW this would be somewhat similar to the Task Force Black working under CIA and MI6 composed of US Army Delta, SAS, SBS and US Navy Seals carrying out covert operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"These are b***s to the w**l warriors who are parachute trained and think nothing of going for a lovely evening stroll in areas and conditions where we wouldnt last an hour."

All are IA SF men are.Salute these brave souls who risks their lives day in and day out so we may sleep in peace and live like free men. It's always and honour meeting and speaking to such wonderful soldiers. Have the privilge and honour of speaking to a few EX Para-SF Men working now in Corporate Security in my previous organisation, one of them a Shaurya Chakra Winner in Operation Pawan in Sri Lanka and the other an ex instructor in the commando training school at Belgaum.

Thanks & best Regards

[Moin.]

The SFF as you know was the covert special ops unit of the R&AW initially aimed at countering China and hence was composed of many tibetan's.Around 1980 R&AW formed a special unit composed of SFF and Army Special Forces(Navy's MARCOS hadn't been formed until 1987) named the "Special Group".Until the NSG was formed Special Group was the main Counter Terrorism unit in the country.

The Special Group comes under the R&AW and was the first unit to use Tavor Assault Rifles(you will read SFF used them but it was SG as both come under the R&AW).This group doesn't have almost any Tibetans unlike the SFF,most of the volunteers are from the seven Para(SF) units of the Parachute regiment(in June 2011 a new unit 11 Para(SF) was added to the Regt. focussing on the North-East,this sector was mainly dealt by 21 Para(SF) before) and probably the Navy's MARCOS.

It is without a doubt very very secretive,famous officers include the Late Major Udai Singh of 1 Para(SF) who was a part of the Special Group,here is a link that shows the letter the CO of the Special Group wrote to his parents after he passed away.
http://majorudaisingh.com/letters/thapa.jpg

I .[/quote]

Thanks Boris, I had seen the website for Late Major Udai Singh of the Special Group. From what I heard is the Special group was primarily for Covert Ops like the US Army Delta and SAS, whereas the 51 SAG of the NSG was for Counter Terrorism, Anti Hijacking, Mumbai Taj Type of Scenarios. Has the Special Group been disbanded after the formation of NSG as both have volunteers from Para SF exclusively.Is this Special Group 4 Vikas of RAW, as you mentioned these are very very secretive units within the army someone like Safarigent with a father in active duty SF can throw more light on.Not sure on the Navy Seals though. Like all SF from all countries they are highly trained soldiers, just the wrong type of media exposure I guess with Col. Charlie Beck's POL KHOL on the US Army Delta and Andy Mac Nab's series of books on the SAS.
Not much is known or publicly available on such units in the IA except (the Killer Instinct by Maj.Gen.OP Sabharwal), the Russian Spetnaz and the Israeli SF.

Regards
Moin.

[boris]

The SFF as you know was the covert special ops unit of the R&AW initially aimed at countering China and hence was composed of many tibetan's.Around 1980 R&AW formed a special unit composed of SFF and Army Special Forces(Navy's MARCOS hadn't been formed until 1987) named the "Special Group".Until the NSG was formed Special Group was the main Counter Terrorism unit in the country.

The Special Group comes under the R&AW and was the first unit to use Tavor Assault Rifles(you will read SFF used them but it was SG as both come under the R&AW).This group doesn't have almost any Tibetans unlike the SFF,most of the volunteers are from the seven Para(SF) units of the Parachute regiment(in June 2011 a new unit 11 Para(SF) was added to the Regt. focussing on the North-East,this sector was mainly dealt by 21 Para(SF) before) and probably the Navy's MARCOS.

It is without a doubt very very secretive,famous officers include the Late Major Udai Singh of 1 Para(SF) who was a part of the Special Group,here is a link that shows the letter the CO of the Special Group wrote to his parents after he passed away.
http://majorudaisingh.com/letters/thapa.jpg

I .

Thanks Boris, I had seen the website for Late Major Udai Singh of the Special Group. From what I heard is the Special group was primarily for Covert Ops like the US Army Delta and SAS, whereas the 51 SAG of the NSG was for Counter Terrorism, Anti Hijacking, Mumbai Taj Type of Scenarios. Has the Special Group been disbanded after the formation of NSG as both have volunteers from Para SF exclusively.Is this Special Group 4 Vikas of RAW, as you mentioned these are very very secretive units within the army someone like Safarigent with a father in active duty SF can throw more light on.Not sure on the Navy Seals though. Like all SF from all countries they are highly trained soldiers, just the wrong type of media exposure I guess with Col. Charlie Beck's POL KHOL on the US Army Delta and Andy Mac Nab's series of books on the SAS.
Not much is known or publicly available on such units in the IA except (the Killer Instinct by Maj.Gen.OP Sabharwal), the Russian Spetnaz and the Israeli SF.

Regards
Moin.[/quote]

You are Welcome.

The Special Group is still very much active.Some real sensitive ops in sensitive areas are done by them.Not much is known about the Indian SF,many for eg dont know the difference between Para and Para(SF).

I did read Col. Beckwith's book it was a good read.Regarding media exposure I can say one thing the SAS and the Green Berets always are very humble,zero arrogance from their side the sad part with the SEALs is the arrogance and the constant "our BUDS is hands down the hardest training in the world"(yeah right the SAS selection has a 20% more rejection rate).

Now coming to the Russians their concept of SF is not understood by many.In Russian Spetsnaz means "Special Purpose Unit" hence all such units are called Spetsnaz.But the catch is they have their individual designations.Now the Russians have a diff concept of SF as all their SF come under Intelligence units,like the Alpha group comes under the FSB and the unit regarded as most elite that is the Spetsnaz GRU comes under the GRU(Russian Military Intel).Possibly since recon and intel collection is the basis of the planning of every mission it seems they find it better to keep SF under intel units.The GRU Spetsnaz was heavily used in Afghanistan and is used to give nightmares to the Chechens.The ones involved in the Beslan Raid and the Moscow Theater Seige were the FSB's Alpha Group.The Interior ministry the MVD has its own Spetsnaz and a former member Sonny Puzikas teaches courses in the US,the guy has amazing skills please do see his videos on youtube.

But as far as secrecy go the GRU Spetsnaz beat the SAS hands down,we have seen many ex-SAS in media but none from the GRU Spetsnaz has ever been seen in Media,written books,though some anonymously gave an interview or two after 9/11 when USA went to A'stan.

Regards

[xl_target]

Boris, As far as the Seals go, there are a lot of people who claim to belong who really do not because officially, the unit will not acknowledge who is a member and who isn't. You need to be aware that there are some commercial organizations that claim to offer Seal training and graduates of those organizations may claim to have Seal training.

It would be poor operational security for an active duty Seal to tell anyone that he is member of that organization. A retired Seal is free to do anything he wants but how can a member of the general public prove whether he is who he says he is. What a lot of us know about the Seal organization and methods is from what Dick Marcinko wrote in his books and that info is decades old already. A few other Seals have published books since then but no one went into details about the table of organization or specific training methods like Dick did.

I'm not saying that they are the best. I'm saying there is very little that we really know about the Seals today. What little we do know is just what they let us know.

[Sakobav]

I agree with XL - Seals are some of the smartest folks - brain over brawn -- I knew two one was hard hitting techie sales person no nonsense person , second was calm laid back competent network engineer regular joe and then ex Gov of Minnesota ( he defeated a scion of political family a democrat and a future republican senator in election).

Indian SF should be one of the most active and as I read some where in fog of war there are regular units who perform remarkably well compared to their trained counterparts..but a person who under went few weeks on intense training with diplomatic security services ( US state deptt) mentioned that amount of firing he did with guns was way beyond what they did back home.

Kudos to one and all who server in these units and defense forces

Best