Lets go to see a lot of guns-Hundreds of them

[winnie_the_pooh]

Vikram,

Would be interesting if you could do a write up of arms taken as war trophies from India.

[kanwar76]

Another Gem of a post Vikram,

Thanks a lot for taking time to post so many pics, loved them all.

-Inder

[timmy]

Thanks, Vikram!

The auto rifle next to the Iver Johnson single shot shotgun used in the Easter Uprising is, I think, the same rifle as the Remington Model 8, but made by FN in Belgium. These came in .25, .30, 32, and .35 Remington, which were all in the .30-30 power class. the .35 Remington was offered for a long time as a chambering in the Marlin 336 lever rifle that's still sold (but I don't know if they still are made in .35 Rem.).

http://www.remington.com/products/archi ... del-8.aspx

These rifles use the long recoil auto action like the Browning Auto 5 shotgun, where the barrel recoils all the way back with the bolt, staying locked until the bolt reaches the rear-most travel. Then the barrel is unlocked from the bolt and returns to battery, at which time the bolt is released, picks up and loads the next round, and locks.

One thing that really stands out to me are the two large 15" naval rifles that are in front of the museum, which you provided those pictures of. I think I can come close to naming the 22 ships they were used in: there were 5 of the new fast battleships of the Queen Elizabeth class. (These had the distinction of introducing oil as the sole fuel of capital ships in the British Navy. This step was resisted, despite the knowledge the oil was superior to coal as a fuel, firstly because Britain had huge coal deposits and no known oil deposits of size before WW1, and secondly because coal bunkers were often part of a capital ship's protection. These were the Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Barham, Warspite, and Malaya) Then there were the next 5 ships of the "R" class: Ramillies, Resolution, Royal Oak, (the one sunk by Prien at Scapa Flow) Royal Sovereign, and Revenge, Battle Cruisers Repulse and Renown, large light cruisers Courageous and Glorious, and the ill fated Hood, and finally Vanguard, the last British Battleship built. That amounts to 16 ships. I think the remaining vessels were shallow draft monitors, of which Roberts that was mentioned was one, but I don't know the monitors that used the 15" Mk. I off of the top of my head.

These guns, like the 13.5" that preceded it, were spurred by the impetus of Admiral John Fisher, who revolutionized the British Navy by introducing HMS Dreadnought, the first all big gun battleship, and the battlecruiser. His idea was to hit first and hit often, and he was always pushing for greater gun power. Even though the Royal Navy had the largest guns in the 13.5", Fisher and Churchill (First Lord of the Admiralty then) took the next step to 15" to ensure British superiority.

An interesting aspect of these weapons is that they are of Wire wound construction: one of the layers of steel between the outside tube and the actual barrel's rifled tube was comprised of wire wound tightly around an inner tube for strength. Like the 13.5" before it, it was noted for accuracy, long barrel life, and great destructive power.

The last British battleship to be built did not use either the 16" guns of the Nelson and Rodney, nor the 14" guns of the King George V class. Instead, the turrets in stock that were intended for other WW1 era vessels and that were taken from Courageous and Glorious upon their conversion to aircraft carriers were used for a single new ship to speed construction and minimize the use of resources. (Turrets and guns used on battleships took as much time to build as the rest of the ship!)

Modeled on the King George V class, Vanguard used the proven 15" Mk. I and thus the last serving British battleship used this proven instrument of war.

Regarding the midget subs, the top one is a Biber. When I looked it up, Wiki even had a picture of the same one!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biber_(submarine)

About the other one, I can't say. It looks to be a type of manned torpedo that the British called a "chariot." other navies had them as well, and the most successful of them were the ones the Italians used in WW2 to sink the battleships Queen Elizabeth and Valiant in Alexandria harbor. These Italian jobs didn't detonate like a torpedo. They were driven by divers to their target, the warhead was detached, and the divers would attach the warhead to the vessel they wanted to sink.

When the Italians attached the warheads to Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, they were caught. Knowing that they had attached mines to the ships, the British sent the Italians to be confined in the lowest holds, so that the threat of them dying first in the blast all knew that was coming would get them to talk. At the last few minutes, the Italians spoke and told the British to evacuate the ships, for they would soon be blown up. The ships were evacuated, including the Italians, and the British fleet in the Med was deprived of two battleships! (Some think that the Italians were totally incompetent during WW2, but like other such ideas about fighting men, they had their heros, as well.)

I will stop before going on to discuss the Rolls Royce Merlin, since that's something I can really get wound up about!

[winnie_the_pooh]

Timmy,

Interesting posts.Please continue.

[timmy]

Thanks Winnie. I get to writing and forget my points sometimes.

The importance of the Queen Elizabeth class was not only in introducing oil burning to capital ships, but the problems of oil supply that Britain had affect us even until today.

Before the Queen Elizabeths were in service, it was apparent to the British that they needed to secure a source of oil. Winston Churchill, then First Lord of the Admiralty, appointed Sir John Fisher, former First Sea Lord and now retired, to be the chairman on the Royal Commission on Oil Supply. One of the results of this was Churchill being able to get an appropriation of £2.2 million to buy controlling interest in the Anglo-Persian oil company.

If you want to read the whole story about this, here is an interesting Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Persian_Oil_Company

But the short story is that, in the early 50s, the Iranians were, as a nation, intensely dissatisfied with the arrangement of Anglo-Persian with the British and the Prime Minister, Mohammed Mossadegh, and the Iranian Parliament moved to nationalize the oil fields. (This move was similar to the one President Lazaro Cardenas had accomplished regarding the Mexican oil fields in 1938.)

The British resisted and applied the tactics of international sanctions. Furthermore, they enlisted the help of the USA. The Eisenhower Administration claimed Mossadegh was in league with Communism and directed the CIA to organize a coup in favor of the Shah, and the armed forces overthrew Mossadegh and preserved the oil fields under western control.

So, the effort to carry those huge 15" guns at sea to fight the Germans led directly to the controversy we see occurring today with Iran's Ahmadinejad, although not so many recognize this.

I find it fascinating to be able to lay hands on historical items like this and like one of the engines from Hess's aircraft. It is amazing how our lives today are so shaped by historical events that started out to address something completely different. That's why I find museums so interesting, and for sure, the Imperial War Museum is at the very forefront of preserving key historical items from the modern era, especially

[Yaj]

The Imperial War Museum! Wow!It has always been on my list of places to visit. Thanks for giving us such a treat Vikram!
Regards,
Yaj.

[Vikram]

Vikram,

Would be interesting if you could do a write up of arms taken as war trophies from India.

That is a very interesting topic,Winnie. Any ideas where to start? Thanks.

Tim,

Thank you very much for the very interesting history lessons,techinicana and pointing us towards right directions.Please do continue with them.

Re the massive .44 revolver,


Rev. Grumpus Rumpus Maximus has this to say:

The S&W .44 Russian. If it is a S&W it wasn`t made in Germany......and if it was made in Germany it isn`t a S&W or part of the Russian contract HOWEVER the engineers at the Tula arsenal copied the gun and also requested gunmakers in Germany to manufacture the gun. Copies were also made in Belgium and Spain.The S&W Model 3/Russian was definitely a superior handgun to the Colt SAA. There were also double action versions, target versions and variations in other calibres than .44. Originally .44 American, then in .44 Russian as well ( designed by S&W ) and later in .44-40.The .44 Russian was a redesign of the .44 and introduced the .429" diameter bullet which was later developed into the .44 Special and then - in 1956 ( I think ......... ) - the .44 magnum. Just as the US .38s are .357" bore ( hence the .357 mag ) the .44 mag is a .429" bore.....

Best-
Vikram

[winnie_the_pooh]

Vikram,

Would be interesting if you could do a write up of arms taken as war trophies from India.

That is a very interesting topic,Winnie. Any ideas where to start? Thanks.Vikram

This might help http://www.punjabheritagelectures.org/i ... index.html

[timmy]

About the S&W:

I looked in Flayderman's and it seems clear that it is an S&W Model 3 Russian Third Model.

These came both in commercial versions and as weapons made to fill a Russian contract. Flayderman says that 41,138 were made for this contract. He also says that copies were also made by Ludwig Loewe in Berlin, Germany, both commercially and for the Tsarist Government. Finally, there were also copies made by the Russian arsenal at Tula.

Also, S&W made this model for the Turkish and Japanese government, so Vikram, Flayderman agrees with your buddy pretty closely.

[TwoRivers]

The Polish bullet for their anti-tank rifle had a plain lead core; since they had found during development that this would cause more spalling of the armor on the inside, and was more likely to injure crew members.

The Germans, who also had developed an 8mm round on their WWI 13mm case, used a tungsten core and a tear-gas pellet in the base of the bullet. Ammunition for the "Ur" was re-bulleted by the Germans with their tungsten-core bullet, and used early in the war, before being passed on to allies. This has led to the confusion, since ammo that fell into allied hands had the tungsten core; and to the error in English language literature.

[eljefe]

Great sunday read,Musa, ol fruit wonder what the fusa's will have to yodel about in iambic pentameter?
Missed it on the last trip, this july,will try harder

[m24]

Great pics, Vikram. Thanks for sharing. Still drooling over the pics of the old rifles.

Regards

[ravi.sharma]

Hi Vikram,

Thanks for another fantastic tour, you made my day Man.

Timmy, Thanks for making it further more interesting.


Ravi.

[cottage cheese]

Hey Vikram,

Sorry for dropping in late into this tread.... as you well know I too am among thousands of guns, though not to high on the variety side...

The pictures are fascinating and I could spend an indefinite amount of time poring over the pictures... Imagine if I was there in person.... er ...is the museum looking to employ additional janitors? under ST-SC-OBC quota perhaps ? ...or maybe you won't mind hosting an illegal immigrant for a week or so?

I don't know where to start commenting. You must have probably got a hint from my emails about my current fascination with hardware from the Great War- likewise the pictures of WWI stuff from the museum is enchanting.

Thank you for sharing.

regards,
cc

[nagarifle]

yes indeed, next time please inform me in advance so i can get a bucket for my Silva to drip in to.