A Pakistani company selling gun stock blanks

[cottage cheese]

INSAS is a superior gun??? The only people thoroughly convinced of this are the weedy charlatans occupying office real estate at the OFB. Apart form that even Nepal has misgivings about the contraption(remember we dumped several thousand 'export' versions almost for free on that poor nation.

If that were the case, the Chauchat would be my favourite MG.

Both are shining examples of arms designed and developed by committees.

[Mack The Knife]

I have a little idea of what guns are being made in India; INSAS etc. But forgive my ignorance and tell me the various type of guns being made by Pakistan and in what terms they are superior to guns like the INSAS rifle.

The Insas does not have a good reputation. Do a search here for additional information. As far as I know, the standard assault rifle for the Pakistani infantry is a licenced copy of the Heckler & Koch G3.

I obviously haven't shot either but I would be surprised if the Insas proved to be a better assault rifle than the POF version of the G3.

As for sporting guns, Mehul had posted a link or two to private manufacturers in Pakistan and those guns certainly came across as being far better made than what is on offer to Indian civilians courtesy the IOF and the private shotgun manufacturers.

Mack The Knife

[Risala]

The Daudson Shotguns that are being imported into the US look pretty good for their price $ 400.

http://www.daudsons.org

There is thread on these guns at www.doublegunshop.com

Now why cant our gun makers plonked in Jammu & Munger do the same.

Check out www.mungergun.com and see the difference between the two.

Sanjay

[Vikram]

Go easy there young Jedi. Ask questions but please spare the opinions. If you ask good questions nicely,you get very elaborate and informative replies. We all are more patriotic than the chest thumpers.If INSAS gets knocked here,it's for a reason.Because,we care to see our soldiers get the best fighting tools and not what corruption,incompetency and callousness deigns to force on them. True to what Samuel Johnson said ,"Patriotism is the last refuse of a scoundrel" ,they would call anyone who questioned them unpatriotic.



For info on INSAS, please do a search on this site and a bit on google before you come with a reply.Come with info as to why you think the INSAS is better than the Pakistan's G3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G3

Or ask why people think INSAS is not a good rifle.

Sportsmen have no frontiers as Abhijeet once said here and we intend to keep friendly relations with everyone.Let us not drag ourselves into needless patriot games. Pakistan does have at this moment a better gunmaking industry and there is no reason for India not to. We as a group are trying to change it and giving up guns for computers is not what we intend to do.IT and guns both have their place.

All this, not to knock on you.Just to remind everyone what we are for.

Good shooting -
Vikram

[Vikram]

Dang. Quickgun Murugan beat me to it again. Just as I was typing it, in comes his reply.

[cottage cheese]

Die hard nationalists would brand me a traitor.... but I'll say that the Pakistani's seem to be pretty prectical as regards military hardware. They don't waste as much time and money as we Indians do in national prestige edited.very apt thoughcontests....all the wasted R&D...all the money and resources sunk in the vain upkeep of under performing, babu-ized scientists and technocrats.

Try to handle a POF G3... they definitely don't compare to the original HK quality... but they are quite a bit better than most OFB hardware (INSAS included). I have handled and fired quite a few POF made 'trophies'... so I can attest to that. There's of course the big big big difference in firepower and range....between 7.62Nato and the pipsqueak 5.56

Try their MG3... we're downgrading our LMG to the shitty INSAS LMG...

Try the POF MP5.... our equivalent is the schloky Sterling Carbine

Now there's the loaded message in the Armys move to switch to the TAVOR in small trickles.

I'm not endorsing POF products.... I'm simply trying to nail in the point that we are capable of so much better.

[mehulkamdar]

What I find particularly galling about the INSAS rifle is that it is a copy of the Galil/R-4 which is an extremely reliable service rifle. How on earth someone could muck up a superb design based on the Kalashnikov, arguably among the most reliable automatic rifles ever designed, is beyond me - The IOFB have achieved this impossible. IMO it would be completely unpatriotic to stay quiet and parrot their propaganda about doing a great job as it is Indian soldiers who are at risk because of their incompetence.

And yes, I shall reiterate what Vikram has said - this is NOT a question of thumoping our chests and acting superior. It is only by accepting where we have gone wrong that we could find a way to do right. Not recognising the very real quality problem with IOFB products and the very superior quality of products available from Pakistan not to mention the completely overwhelming superiority of Pakistani sporting guns would be akin to an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. Cottage Cheese's comparison with the Chauchat made me laugh until I realised what a terrible thing this is for those who have to depend on a piece of scrap metal like the INSAS.

Mack The Knife's statement about the stock on a gun being a very important part to aid in aiming etc is absolutely right. If this were not the case, advanced shooters would not be paying tens of thousands of dollars for custom gunstocks to people like Dave Norin or Chic Worthing in the US not to mention other master craftsmen in other countries. These are people who can build a sleek and elegant rifle or shotgun which could point and shoot as well as or most probably better than the IKEA contraptions that ISSF shooters shoot and claim is great for want of better experience.

Finally, the Pakistan Hunting Association is a friendly forum to Indians For Guns. We have good relations with sportsmen everywhere and like in cricket or hockey, we hope to have friendly relations with our neighbours at the Shooting Ranges. Some of our members have visited Pakistan and have enjoyed the highest standards of hospitality over there and have personal friendships which are every bit as cordial as the friendships here. We are NOT a political forum and our only political concerns are those that relate to gun ownership laws in India and in other parts of the world. Please do NOT bring in politics here unless it relates to gun rights. We do NOT want our friends from other countries feeling unwelcome - some trolls in the past raked up trouble and they are off the forums for good. Any attempt at causing trouble will be dealt with strictly. A hint - if you wish to thump your chest loudly go to the Bharat Rakshak forums and post there - perhaps the best place for those who have never held a gun to pontificate on quality and try to sound intelligent doing this.

OT - Sanjay, would you please point me to the thread on the Daudsons guns at the Double Gun Shop website? I could not find it. I am presuming that the $ 400 is for the Daudsons boxlock gun. They also have a sidelock assisted opener which was tested by a Finnish gun magazine and found very satisfactory. I haven't seen any in stores around here but if I were looking for a budget sidelock gun, I would buy a Daudsons gun and shoot it.

Cheers!

[Risala]

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthre ... 4bccea9322

[kanwar76]

Would still be better than any Pakistani city. won't it?

I would love to know which INDIAN and which Pakistani cities are you comparing.

-Inder

[cottage cheese]

What I find particularly galling about the INSAS rifle is that it is a copy of the Galil/R-4 which is an extremely reliable service rifle. How on earth someone could muck up a superb design based on the Kalashnikov, arguably among the most reliable automatic rifles ever designed, is beyond me - The IOFB have achieved this impossible. IMO it would be completely unpatriotic to stay quiet and parrot their propaganda about doing a great job as it is Indian soldiers who are at risk because of their incompetence.

And yes, I shall reiterate what Vikram has said - this is NOT a question of thumoping our chests and acting superior. It is only by accepting where we have gone wrong that we could find a way to do right. Not recognising the very real quality problem with IOFB products and the very superior quality of products available from Pakistan not to mention the completely overwhelming superiority of Pakistani sporting guns would be akin to an ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. Cottage Cheese's comparison with the Chauchat made me laugh until I realised what a terrible thing this is for those who have to depend on a piece of scrap metal like the INSAS.

To put things very clear, the INSAS is basically an FNC crammed into a slightly modified AKM receiver. Very technically speaking, its mostly FNC. Other design elements borrowed are the HK type charging handle, SLR based carrying handle and Stock... And of course there is the silly 20 round magazine when 30 is more or less standard for 5.56 world wide...stingy clods....and yet again...there is the stupid brain dead brick red furniture.

The OFB specializes in incompetence. We've successfully botched up every copied arm that we have come across...other than the .303. Just goes to show we can't even license manufacture competently. The problem is the mindset and the system... everybody wants to be an officer without earning it...end of story.

Look at the SLR- I've compared SLR1As manufactured in the late 70's upto the mid 80's with post 90's batches. The difference is shocking. The metal is different, much heavier, finish is next to nil. Even the damn markings are not stamped any longer... they etch it or something. The actuation of the moving parts is rough and scratchy. Recoil is more pronounced... The carrier recoil transfer rod is made of some soft steel...it bends very easily! The general fit is very poor.

Carbine 9mm.... SAF Carbines upto the late 80's were ok. With good fit and finish. They had this splendid polymer matte finish. I checked recent batches (Year 2000 manufacture) despite the addition of an additional cut out sear to preclude accidental slam fires, the general workmanship has taken a brisk dip. No more polymer finish... just some horrid gloss black finish that looks hand painted... a lot of badly fitted parts.

9mm Pistol 1A- The OFB didn't even have the ability to secure license manufacture from FN? We're making a sorry copy of the Canadian Inglis version(Dunno if its under license)... Plain phosphate with horribly applied black enamel(Again looks hand painted!) The finish comes off in months. The springs are of incredibly poor quality. This leads to endless feed and cycling problems. The safety is a knobby thumb-buster. Again the fit is very poor and inconsistent, ranging from insanely tight to pretty loose. Very fat grip panels...man... for heavens sake, its plastic... how difficult can a grip re-contour be? Most folks rummage for the old FN GP35s and hang on to it when they do!

MAG... I've only checked out some FN pieces... though I've seen a couple of OFB made MAGs which as expected...look pretty sorry.

Now they are crapping about manufacturing the AKM...what an achievement!! And that imaginative name- 7.62mm Rifle. And they harp about it like no one else can make stuff like that.

Who the hell gives bollocks about those very 'original' contraptions like the MINSAS and the so called Excalibur...hah! What a poor take on a name! reminds me of the typically peculiar Indian penchant to put old wine in new bottles (Look at our automotive industry)

As regards civilian firearms...the lesser said the better. Enough has been discussed elsewhere on the forums.

Ammo? say no more! Just to highlight the sorry state. There was this article on the Newspapers some years back... some naive dork form the OFB was harping about its achievements...and gave a lot of BS about how they reverse engineered the 7.62x39mm round... I thought we were friendly enough with Russia to simply secure license manufacture of ammunition.... I feel he was letting in on the OFB's ploy to keep the research folks employed...

[penpusher]

In addition to this,most of the optics(besides other things) sold by the IOFB are imported stuff that the IOFB chaps label as theirs and sell to the Indian Armed Forces at a profit.Meaning that they sell it at a much higher price than the sale price,the difference helping to cover the general waste in the Board(hence no profit on sale to the army, sir).The Army can buy much of it directly and save some money in the proces.The IOFB manufacutred bullet proof jackets are so heavy and uncomfortable that many soldiers prefer to not use them or use them with the side panels removed,defeating the very purpose of having them.

penpusher

[cottage cheese]

In addition to this,most of the optics(besides other things) sold by the IOFB are imported stuff that the IOFB chaps label as theirs and sell to the Indian Armed Forces at a profit.Meaning that they sell it at a much higher price than the sale price,the difference helping to cover the general waste in the Board(hence no profit on sale to the army, sir).The Army can buy much of it directly and save some money in the proces.The IOFB manufacutred bullet proof jackets are so heavy and uncomfortable that many soldiers prefer to not use them or use them with the side panels removed,defeating the very purpose of having them.

penpusher

Yeah penpusher... the OFB is for all practical purposes a bunch of black marketeering merchants. Such lies and deception.

Bullet proof! 9.5 kilos! Thats the silliest exercise I ever saw! The army dumped them as soon as they could.... a lot ended up with the police...only the CRPF wears them religiously.

[penpusher]

"Screw driver monkeys" is a comment made by somebody in the know of how the OFB operates.Nothing could be more apt.There was an article in 'India Today' or 'Outlook'(I forget in which and when) some weeks back detailing this.

penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

A major problem with the INSAS and other auto firearms that the Indian army has has been with the ammunition as cordite is still the propellant used. While the rest of the world has switched to vastly more advanced propellants the IOFB sticks to century old junk.

Also, I have shot the Ischapore (as some were spelled) Enfields - I like the Lee Enfield design a lot and to call the IOFB ones decent is complete bunk. Give me a Lithgow, Savage or Fazakerley Enfield anyday.

[Grumpy]

"Cottage Cheese's comparison with the Chauchat made me laugh until I realised what a terrible thing this is for those who have to depend on a piece of scrap metal like the INSAS."

Don`t laugh too loud - in spite of its reputation ( "It was undoubtedly the worst machine gun ever issued at any time in History" - Ian V. Hogg ) the Chauchat shares certain similarities with IOF small arms in that it was the poor standard of production that let it down. The Chauchat was a sound if eccentric design but built appallingly badly - of the total of almost 35,200 purchased by the Americans at least half were abandoned on the battlefield after their first jam...........but at least it they jammed after at least one burst - I was reading a few weeks ago of INSAS carbines being incapable of even chambering the first round.