Indians For Guns

The MHA has submitted an affidavit in the Supreme Court saying that they will tighten licensing/ other Arms Act norms - in effect saying that they will continue to try and bulldoze ahead with the proposed amendments. Please see

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 14956.aspx

Arms licence norms tightened
Satya Prakash, Hindustan Times
New Delhi, March 04, 2010
The Centre has tightened norms for issue, renewal and transfer of arms licences.
With criminals increasingly finding it easy to lay hands on licensed weapons, the government has also done away with a provision that allowed licence without police verification.
It has written to states and union territories to ensure strict compliance of the revised guidelines, the Centre has said in an affidavit filed in the Supreme Court. Home Minister P. Chidambaram will take up the matter with the chief ministers as well so that illegal sale of arms can be effectively addressed.
The ministry’s affidavit is in response to a public interest litigation filed in 2007 by advocate Arvind Kumar Sharma for a CBI probe into a gunrunning case allegedly involving army and Rajasthan government officials after HT wrote about it.
In a September 5, 2007 report, HT said army officers were selling personal weapons in the grey market with the help of a cartel of arms dealers in the border districts of Rajasthan.
The state governments/district magistrates have been told not to delegate powers given to them under the Arms Act, 1959. They have been also been told not to issue licences without verifying the antecedents of an applicant.
If a weapon held by defence personnel has to be sold to a civilian, permission from concerned authorities is a must.
The ministry admitted that in several cases either police verification reports were not obtained or incompetent authorities issued licences. In some cases, district magistrates gave licences to even those who didn’t reside in the area of their jurisdiction.
The states have been asked to advise deputy commissioners/district collectors to scrupulously follow the arms Act, the affidavit said.
The Rajasthan government has admitted before the court irregularities in 325 cases. As many as 227 licences were cancelled and 98 cases were being looked into. In at least 41 cases, licences were issued to persons with a criminal background from neighbouring Punjab.
The state government has also done away with powers of a tehsildar (a revenue official) to grant arms licences.
For prohibited bore weapons, the home ministry is the licensing authority, while for non-prohibited bore weapons, a district magistrate can issue licences.

as all ways, punishing the wrong people. according to this its the state problem and not a nation wide issue, and what appears that it is not the civilians but the forces who are breaking the law.

"With criminals increasingly finding it easy to lay hands on licensed weapons, the government has also done away with a provision that allowed licence without police verification."

so if the police approves the arms licence, then would it mean that the criminals will not get hold of arms?

its a case of innocent being hit again by both sides.

That means punishing those right people who act between the lines and have bonafied reason to have an Arms for sporting / self defence with leaglly issued licence. This is ridiculous. We need to protest.

So all our effort has been in vain.

"With criminals increasingly finding it easy to lay hands on licensed weapons"

no proof of this in MHA report, but statement like that is being used.

"With criminals increasingly finding it easy to lay hands on licensed weapons"

very true, all the nexels etc are armed with government arms, and they find it easy to get government arms, yet noting is done in this regards.

or put it this way, in regards to the latest news.

BSF are child killers.

(based on one officer killing a youth, does that make all the members of the BSF child killers?)

sorry for ranting as, its getting pathetic the way babus misuse the facts.

This just strengthens my view that closed door meetings are not going to help. This is INDIA, here you need to make some noise if you want to be heard. You just can’t do anything in this country if you are not grabbing front page headlines.

Let’s get up from our collective lazy asses and make some noise.

Delhi Chalo

So all our effort has been in vain.

No they have not been in vain. It clearly proves that MHA does not listen to valid concerns of the citizens. Does someone have obtained a copy/s obtained by RTI of http://www.mha.nic.in/pdfs/DAAM-PolicyI ... 211209.pdf and of the reply/s sent objecting the same?

A very important question to all: Are we willing join in this PIL filed in 2007 by advocate Arvind Kumar Sharma as stake holders and counter the MHA? We can also contact the respondents in this PIL and their lawyers.

I am of the opinion that these issues are just the symptoms of the real problem that is the Arms Act 1959 and the rules and notifications issued therein. The net result has been gradual slide downwards resulting in violation of the fundamental Rights of Life/liberty/equality/Freedom of movement. We have to come out the the thinking that criminals can be prevented by any law from acquiring firearms. This is the crux of the problem. Arms Act or no Arms Act, criminals will manage to get arms. It makes no difference to the victim of crime if he/she is assaulted by legal or illegal firearms. Under no circumstances victim's fundamental rights need to be violated by government under one excuse or the other.

Subjecting the grant of license solely on police verification has following practical problems:
a) It is a fact that police in India is still working under the colonial administrative setup, hence it is just a tool in the hands of ruling party. If party X is in power, then it's supporters will not have problem in getting police report done. But the supporters of opposition party will get their licenses suspended pending subject to police enquiry which will never complete.
b) Reach and level of corruption in police is also well known, hence the scope of demanding/providing illegal gratification increases exponentially. Those who will grease the palms will get police report others will count their days waiting for police report. We are all aware of the experience of "police verification" of passports.

Please read the intentions of legislature in Aims and Objectives of Arms Act 1959(ref: http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2779)

" (b)(ii) that weapons of self-defence are available for all citizens under license unless their antecedents or propensities do not entitle them for the privilige;and

(iii)that firearms required for training purposes and ordinary civilians are made more easily available on permits;...."

Then read section 40 of Arms Act under Chapter VI Miscellaneous:
Protection of action taken in good faith.

40. Protection of action taken in good faith.- No suit, prosecution or other legal proceeding shall lie against any person for any thing which is in good faith done or intended to be done under this Act.

It is clear from section 40 that Arms Act 1959 after reading in conjunction with above mentioned aims and objectives of Arms Act, that it hinges on nothing but good faith of people. Then what is this above section for? Is it to protect "any person" in the country who keeps arms with purpose of self defense or the executive who "inadvertently" issues license to alleged criminals in "good faith" after "No Police verification" or "Police Verification"?

You may also read my opinions at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 6&start=17

My another view of the Arms Act is that it is suffering from "vice of over delegation". How will police be able to verify the antecedents/propensities of applicants when it is not able to verify the same for it's own police officers:

a) Please read http://www.mha.nic.in/pdfs/DAAM-PolicyI ... 211209.pdf the page 8 of 14, MHA wants special provision to grant of licenses to police personal. It means either fellow police officers are not able to verify the antecedents/propensities of fellow police officers or the Licensing Authorities are not able to understand how to implement Arms Act and related myriad of rules and notifications. If the entire system is "free and fair" the police officers should not have any problem to get arms license by the normal and due course for the grant of Arms License. Or does it mean that the Arms Act 1959 and/or related rules and notifications are suffering from the "vice of over delegation" and the executive is not able to implement it to the extent that even the police officers are having difficulty obtaining Arms Licenses, resulting in their fundamental rights getting violated?
b) 41. Power to exempt.

41. Power to exempt.- Where the Central Government is of the opinion that it is necessary or expedient in the public interest so to do, it may, by notification in the Official Gazette and subject to such conditions, if any, as it may specify in the notification,--

(a) 2*[exempt any person or class of persons (either generally or in relation to such description of arms
and ammunition as may be specified in the notification)], or exclude any description of arms or ammunition, or withdraw any part of India, from the operation of all or any of the provisions of this Act;
and
(b) as often as may be, cancel any such notification and again subject, by a like notification, the person or
class of persons or the description of arms and ammunition or the part of India to the operation of such provisions.

In my opinion these unbridled powers to exempt/exclude or cancel for "any person or class of persons" "as often as may be" given to the executive in the name of "public interest" to violate various fundamental rights are nothing but "vice of over delegation". It has reduced the fundamental rights of people into nothing but a "plaything" in the hands of executive. Just because one belongs to a certain "class" the fundamental rights will be violated even though he/she has committed no crime.

Hi,

Right now Shri Arvind Sharma is serving MHA cause. He had filed PIL pleading SC to order a CBI inquiry into the reported illegal sale of personal weapons by Army officers in the border districts of Rajasthan. He had also sought a direction to the home ministry and Rajasthan government to cancel all licences issued illegally to applicants without following the verification process. PIL in right direction but it gave reason to MHA to amend the already darconian law.

Just because some Army Guys tried making easy money, its the populus at large which will be at the recieving end.

The best thing would have been to make example out of those chaps and officals in the admin who facililated transactions.

What actually should have happened is Gov should have found out the reason why such thing happen? What makes people take risk? Make the licensing process transparent, quality weapons should be available at reasonable price.

Regards,
Biren

MHA has hijacked this PIL to serve it's own self driven agenda. The advocate Arvind Kumar Sharma who filed this PIL can be contacted at http://advocatekamalkumarpandey.wordpress.com/
I repeat myself again, we have to come out the the thinking that criminals can be prevented by any law from acquiring firearms. This kind of thinking is the crux of the problem. Arms Act or no Arms Act, criminals will manage to get arms. It makes no difference to the victim of crime if he/she is assaulted by legal or illegal firearms. Under no circumstances victim's fundamental rights need to be violated by government under one excuse or the other.

Hi Guys,

The point is how many of us are really inclined in making difference for RKBA in the country. We at IFG are a populace of 3000 odd members only and we are planning to change the Law of the country or shall i mention trying to enforce it as mentioned in the constitution. These types of threads have been discussed on various occasions and eventually have fizzled out without any outcome the reason being hardly members have taken any interest in doing something concrete, i am not here to blame any one, the only thing i am trying to emphasize is, until and unless we don't have a proper group assembled to fight for the cause, individual efforts are not going to count.

I hope NAGRI can provide us that platform. I know my post would be a bit de-motivating for some of the guys, who actually are putting in their best efforts to bring around changes and help the society at large but this post is out of my personal experience.


Ravi.

I agree with Ravi, this is not any individual's issue but the issue of every law abiding person who values life, self defense and his/her God given inalienable fundamental Rights.
I have tried to get the details and the status of the above PIL at http://www.supremecourtofindia.nic.in/ but I was unable to find it. If anyone reading this knows how to find the details please post it here so that all can follow the instructions and find the same.
As per http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 14956.aspx it appears PIL is for probe to be done by CBI so that action can be taken into irregularities and not about amending the Arms Act itself to create further difficulties.

What about the 'genteel' criminals amongst us? the ones who enter 9mm as 30 cal pistols and semi auto rifles as single shot? they are also in the same class as the illegal AK owning dacoit or OC boss...

eljefe wrote:What about the 'genteel' criminals amongst us? the ones who enter 9mm as 30 cal pistols and semi auto rifles as single shot? they are also in the same class as the illegal AK owning dacoit or OC boss...

A correction 9mm para as .380 pistol,semi -auto rifle as bolt action rifle,303rifle as 30 rifle,455 revolver as .450/.441 revolver.Lets not talk about NPB .45 ACP pistols.

-- Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:35 pm --

Since the changes that they are claiming have been made have still not been ratified by the Parliament nor even placed before it,should not the MHA be held guilty of filing a wrong affidavit?

A clever ploy to get the court to agree to these changes and then ram it down our throats as being mandated by a court order.

A clever ploy to get the court to agree to these changes and then ram it down our throats as being mandated by a court order.

I agree very much possible. Hence it is very important to know the details and status of this PIL and inform the court of the draft proposals of MHA and objections that were sent. The MHA had not mentioned why it is seeking the amendments to Arms Act. The draft proposals of MHA and objections that were sent by us appear related to this PIL itself. If one reads the following it becomes apparent: http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7341
Essentially a non issue has been made into an issue by specious clauses Category 1(c) Schedule I of the Arms Rules 1962 which classify PB and NPB calibers. How does it matter or make any difference to the state if one has 30-06 bolt action rifle or .303 bolt action rifle? Or one has .44 or .455? The matter is compounded by the fact, neither the appellants, respondents or the judges really know about firearms in detail but are fighting and deciding about firearms like 5 blind men trying to identify the elephant.

Supreme court is going to open only on the 8th of this month.What this means is that the MHA has filed the affidavit in the Registry.The matter will come up later.

This is a follow up to what they had said earlier in court

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... &page=null