Indians For Guns

Hi Gun Lovers, Freedom Lovers and All that want their own Fate written by themselves!

Despite all the Reports for a Fresh Arms Licence being favourable, the DM has chosen not to grant me my Right! (Please read the excerpts of my discussions with the DM posted on this Forum). While it is unfortunate, I am determined to fight it out with him – and single-handedly, meaning that I will not engage a Lawyer. It is because I am better prepared to represent my case than anyone else. I believe I have the skills, competency, capability and above all the Will to go it alone. More importantly, I cannot afford a 1% chance of failure when a Lawyer is engaged in whose failure I shall have wasted a considerable amount of time.

Please share your thoughts on this point of view of mine whether it is a good idea to go it alone and also share any material information that you consider shall contribute to my success. Several learned gentlemen have already contributed immense material. Therefore, please avoid duplicating anything that you may have already shared with me.

Give me a hand that I can stand up and fight for my rights!

Regards, Pkaran

@pkaran what is the reason quoted by DM for refusal of grant of license?
Regards,
Pranjal

PKaran ji - with all due respect

Your earlier one or this thread doesn't disclose what exactly was communicated to you from DM office .

You didn't pay attention during the discussions in earlier thread . Whatever grounds , apprehension and logic you expressed for you applying for an arms license, were not convincing even the very pro arms members here . It might have served you as suffice to show that maybe you are not putting your case correctly or you're not clear in yourself . Also , despite this if you wanted yo have your way it was still possible by lets say exploiting their unfairness.

Well , we're past all that .

Please , do not try to prosecute your own case in appeal all by yourself. By declining to engage a legal professional not only are you loosing some very specific and subtle legal advice but you're also loosing a second point of view on any matter concerning your case . There must have been some reason a person has studied law for years and people are paying substantial money to engage him ?? You will also be missing on some possibilities of " reconciliation " between you and the owners of the law .

You may be full of resentment or going thtough a deep sense of becoming subject of injustice or even frustration right now but let better sense prevail .

On a lighter note - do not try to be extra- wise and miser , like people at your age tend to be

Mr,Pkaran. Please post the actual grounds for refusal of your application.

Pkaran:

pkaran wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:41 pm

I am determined to fight it out with him – and single-handedly, meaning that I will not engage a Lawyer. It is because I am better prepared to represent my case than anyone else. I believe I have the skills, competency, capability and above all the Will to go it alone.

. . .

Please share your thoughts on this point of view of mine whether it is a good idea to go it alone and also share any material information that you consider shall contribute to my success.

Your experience to date should be a more reliable guide for judging your capabilities than your emotions or self-image. You have already lost round one -- do you feel that you lost because your "skills, competency, and capability" have served you so well? Your "will to go it alone" has already been demonstrated, to no effect.

For instance, when you told the magistrate that you would get an all-states license, of what purpose was this? Could this magistrate approve that? Was that the subject that was on the table? No, it was not. It added nothing to your case, and could have in no way helped you make your point.

You sound to me as if you are someone who has something to prove, or that you want to teach someone a lesson, rather than someone who wants an arms license. That you have not seen how your attitude is not conducive to being considered as someone who would be responsible with a weapon is not a promising development.

In other words, you believe that you are in the right, but what is "right"? That the magistrate needs to be vanquished, or that you receive the license?

Woods wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:05 pm

Please , do not try to prosecute your own case in appeal all by yourself. By declining to engage a legal professional not only are you loosing some very specific and subtle legal advice but you're also loosing a second point of view on any matter concerning your case .

Brother Woods has given you some sound logic here about people who choose to be their own lawyer, and appealed to you to let someone who is skilled take up your cause. Take it. Get a lawyer -- not just any lawyer, but a good one. Put your efforts into this, and do not second-guess or be a "back seat driver" to the lawyer's efforts, once you have selected one.

You have asked for advice and received the same. Now it is up to you.

Hello to all my friends!

Several of my friends on this forum have requested me to post the actual reason why my request has been turned down by the DM. Here it is with a brief annotation by me:

Reasons Cited for Rejection (based on the Police Report):

1) The area where we stay is calm and quiet; there are no antisocial activities reported from there.
The above statement is FALSE! The Police had failed to take cognizance of the murder of Jalaja Suran, 47, in a rape attempt. A newspaper clipping is enclosed as evidence (Exhibit-1)

2) If “HE” gets an Arms Licence, it will ruin the equilibrium of peace in that area.
Sir, this is a highly irresponsible statement as if I were a criminal or had shown the propensity to commit crimes! I take strong exception to it. The Inspector SHO, Kareelakulangara, could be sued for Defamation under Section 499 of the Indian Penal Code!

Detailed Discussion with the DM: (Posted on Oct 15, 2021 entitled, "EXCERPTS OF MY MEETING WITH THE DISTRICT MAGISTRATE"
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Finally, I met the DM as scheduled.

His office was, as usual, bustling with activities and there were scores of people in the wait for their turn to meet him for a myriad of issues. People meeting the DM for GL are rather rare. An Arms Licence for the DM is not in the remotest of his considerations. It is a no-no for him, let alone the relevant laws! I knew that he would cast me aside in less than 3 minutes with his defeat tactics. So, I too was prepared not to give in so easily, given my understanding of the relevant laws. My strength is a clear understanding of the laws in matters related to the issuance of a licence and I consider, in the light of the laws as well as of my own circumstances, that I am one of the most deserving candidates. I believe that the Arms Act 1959 was enacted keeping people like me in mind. Besides, Notwithstanding, I know that nobody, including the State, would want to respect my rights when it comes to issuing me a weapon licence. I realize that if everybody respected the rights of the other, guns would become altogether redundant! The strategy of the DM is not to allocate any time to people asking for Arms Licences, despite the pronouncements by various courts of this country from time to time. He would want to wind up the discussions within the first few seconds and 99.99% of people will recoil unto themselves and take a retreat within this time-frame.

Thus began the discussions:

ME – Enter the DM’s Office, greet him. When I was asked to sit down, I take a seat.

DM – Yes, tell me.

ME – Sir, I have submitted a detailed report in about 20 pages which clearly justifies why I need an arms licence. Besides, this office has received 4 reports - from the Forest Division, the Village Officer, jointly endorsed by the Tehsildar, the Special Wing of the Police and the Police Station in my place and all the reports, except the Police Report, must be in my favour. So, I expect a favourable decision. The Police Report does not say anything negatively against me but it says that there is no need to issue a gun licence because the locality where I stay is a peaceful one.

ME – Sir, the Police Report contains some fundamental errors and I take strong exception to it.

DM – Forget about the report. Tell me whom do you want to shoot?

ME- Sir, I do not want to shoot anyone. I believe that Life is the most precious thing on Earth and therefore it must be preserved at all costs!

DM – Then why do you need a gun? A gun is to shoot with!

ME – Sir, Please take a photograph of my house. It is an iconic building admeasuring 3850 square feet whose design draws the attention of passersby. Besides, this house is surrounded by roads on all three sides.

DM –It is a good thing!

ME – No Sir! People stop by and take photographs of the house. We do not know why they want to take photographs. We also do not know what their motives are. We are seriously worried.

DM – This is no reason to ask for a gun!

ME – Sir, I am not asking for a gun. I am asking for a gun licence!

DM – It is the same!

ME – No Sir, It is not. Criminals do not need a licence; they simply go and get one. We are an old couple staying alone and it is those aged couple staying alone who are targeted by criminals as they are easy targets.

DM – Has there been any untoward incident?

ME – Yes Sir: I explained a situation in which I was threatened with severing my limbs as I pointed out a serious traffic violation in front of my house.

DM – Did you not report to the Police?

ME – Yes Sir, A copy of the Police complaint was enclosed with the report submitted. Sir, I have wound up my Company due to the Global pandemic and also due to my advancing age. I am 61 and have been diabetic for the past 30 years and started suffering from diabetic neuropathy. I cannot put up enough resistance in the event of an aggression due to my age. We need a reliable device to protect our lives. Currently, our only choice is a pepper spray canister which is inadequate. Sir, I am planning to take my wife to explore India. Places of interests are 1,2,3,4,5,6. Several of these States are unfriendly for women. Scores of rape cases have been reported from these places. I need a device capable of creating a window of opportunity in the unlikely event of an unlawful aggression so that we can escape.

DM – You cannot take it to place outside Kerala!

ME – Sir, I will manage it by obtaining a National Permit. I am getting enrolled with a Rifle Club. A Police clearance was obtained only yesterday.

DM – Which Club?

ME – In my District (Name withdrawn)

DM – Ok, Let me review it.

ME – Thank you Sir!

Exeunt
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Aside:

I could have added several points but the DM hastened to wind up the discussions. So, I had to take exit but at least got a promise that my case will be reviewed. Now my question to the IFG’ians is – what will be his final decision, going by the above reading?

PS: I forgot to highlight that there was a murder in my locality when the Police Report says that the locality I stay in is a peaceful area. I could have added several things to gain further mileage but the short-lived discussion was entirely in his control.

Most importantly, I wanted to ask him who guaranteed the lives of 29,193 people who were murdered in 2020 when the Law says that “No person shall be deprived of his life except as per procedures established by the laws”.

I also wanted to ask him what I should do when the State cannot guarantee that:

a. The State cannot guarantee that my wife or I will not be murdered;
b. The State cannot guarantee that my wife will not be raped;
c. The State cannot guarantee that our properties will not be robbed or set on fire;
d. The State cannot guarantee that my wife or I will not be kidnapped for a ransom;
e. The State cannot guarantee that my vehicles shall not be set afire;
f. The State cannot guarantee that our house despite all the preventive measure in place shall not be broken in;

g. The State also does not guarantee compensation in case of damages sustained from one or more of the above circumstances.
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Thank you all for your time!

Hi Friends,

The below is in response to Woods’s observation given in quotes (with due respect to him and I am thankful to him as well as to others for their valuable time):

“Please, do not try to prosecute your own case in appeal all by yourself. By declining to engage a legal professional not only are you loosing some very specific and subtle legal advice but you're also loosing a second point of view on any matter concerning your case”

I do realize that I am living in a corrupt society and making an effort to produce positive results by the very corrupt system. I will, therefore, follow the adage that “If I want to catch fish, feed them with worms, not with strawberries what I may like”.

In a scenario where I litigate my own case, I will be facing the Government Pleader on behalf of the District Magistrate and, in another scenario where my case is handled by my Lawyer he will be facing the Pleader. Now, Government Pleaders being generally corrupt, my Lawyer being at par with him will be able to rub shoulders with him and grease his palms, if necessary, which I will be deprived of and less inclined to . This is how corruption breeds corruption! Because, you need to get moving, somehow!

Love to all! Karan

@pkaran I would second woods advice on engaging a good lawyer who deals in such cases. I understand your passion for the cause and your willingness to take the system head on but what you will be lacking is the expertise in framing your answers to the cunningly posed questions.
I come from a family of lawyers and believe me before speaking in front of my parents or brothers I think multiple times what I am going to say cos there is always a retort ready with them.
On the note about police report talking about equilibrium of peace in the society, the police has no business to suggest to licensing authority on the course of action to be taken. They are required to only provide if you have a criminal back ground or not. The place of your residence and if any of your family members or acquaintances have a history sheet.
All the best brother.
Regards,
Pranjal Tripathi

All the good reasons aside , you should engage a lawyer just because - if on an appointed date you fail to appear when your case or name is called out they're entitled to reject the case for want of prosecution.
More injustice . Haha.

( On a given date you might be having cold or flue and your spouse may be giving all the more hassles by pressuring you to refrain from going out)

My take on this gun licensing philosophy.
1. No police officer will admit that someone under his jurisdiction needs a gun for self protection, it'll mean, he can't protect him or neutralise the threat.
2. Most persons can't prove that they are under threat (though a few may do so with the help of event managers!).
Consequently, the DM/Collector issuing the Gun license, doesn't base his approval on the above considerations, but on whether the applicant will endanger himself, his family or the public if allowed to possess a gun.
The DM can be reassured if the applicant can show that he is familiar with operation and care of guns, has done some target shooting, knows the dos and don'ts of gun ownership, self & home defense etc.
In my view, if you shri Karan can show that you possess the above accomplishments, you'll have a favourable ruling from court. It is of course advisable to first consult a lawyer.

You should write a mail to him that since he has denied the right to self defense as well as defense of your family, incase of any incident against you or your family you will directly hold him accountable for the same and file a case in the court of law against him as a accessory to the crime.

pgupta wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:26 pm

You should write a mail to him that since he has denied the right to self defense as well as defense of your family, incase of any incident against you or your family you will directly hold him accountable for the same and file a case in the court of law against him as a accessory to the crime.

Denial for granting arms licence is no grounds for holding the DM accountable for any wrong doing to an individual that may happen in the future, especially since there is no genuine and specific threat at the time when the license was not sanctioned. The individual can hold the DM accountable as he pleases but this justification will not be admissible in the court of law. The DM will not pay heed to such empty threats and nor will the court make the DM party to it. The law provides ample safeguards to government authorities in such cases and the DM too would have a strong case ready to defend himself. In any case, even when arms licences are granted eventually after obtaining the court order, the court never comments or holds the licensing authority at fault for denying the license in the first place.

The case has to be fought on reasonable grounds with specific facts which best can be suggested by a reputed and experienced lawyer as suggested by other members.

revolver wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:10 pm

pgupta wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:26 pm

You should write a mail to him that since he has denied the right to self defense as well as defense of your family, incase of any incident against you or your family you will directly hold him accountable for the same and file a case in the court of law against him as a accessory to the crime.

Denial for granting arms licence is no grounds for holding the DM accountable for any wrong doing to an individual that may happen in the future, especially since there is no genuine and specific threat at the time when the license was not sanctioned. The individual can hold the DM accountable as he pleases but this justification will not be admissible in the court of law. The DM will not pay heed to such empty threats and nor will the court make the DM party to it. The law provides ample safeguards to government authorities in such cases and the DM too would have a strong case ready to defend himself. In any case, even when arms licences are granted eventually after obtaining the court order, the court never comments or holds the licensing authority at fault for denying the license in the first place.

The case has to be fought on reasonable grounds with specific facts which best can be suggested by a reputed and experienced lawyer as suggested by other members.

Going by this logic no hospital should be made till there are sick people around.