Indians For Guns

Posted: **Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:34 pm**

Hi,

Where to undergo arms training under new rules as is required under the new arms rules? Who provides certified course?

Thnx
Biren

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:54 am**

Biren wrote:Where to undergo arms training under new rules as is required under the new arms rules? Who provides certified course?

Have the Arms Rules 2016 acquired the "force of law" by getting approval from both the houses of Parliament? Until then this question is practically irrelevant. If you read the last two paragraphs of this post viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24511&start=135#p243601 perhaps you will get an idea.

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:40 pm**

The rules were notified in the official gazette and are in force as of now, unless they are amended/ sent back by the parliament - they remain in force!

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:33 pm**

mundaire wrote:The rules were notified in the official gazette and are in force as of now, unless they are amended/ sent back by the parliament - they remain in force!

Well I would not like to debate this question at the moment whether the rules have acquired "force of law" even without Parliamentary approval. But some things are very clear and well settled, they are -

In any enactment, the rights are to be interpreted broadly and the powers are to be interpreted narrowly, consistent with the words written in the enactment. In other words powers that are not written they do not exist.

Power of only notifying is not equal to power of legislating. It must be backed by complete competent legislative powers. In other words, for any enactment to be a law, either Parliament must fully delegate it's legislative powers to the executive or the legislation must get complete Parliamentary approval.

Using these well settled rules of interpretation, it is very clear from reading Section 44 of Arms Act that Parliament has not completely delegated the legislative powers to the executive under Section 44. There can be no controversy about this. That is exactly why the Parliamentary approval is necessary.

If anyone could share any High Court or Supreme Court judgment related to similar matter, where Parliament has not delegated complete legislative powers except notifying the Rules but the Rules are to be considered having force or color of law?

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:55 pm**

The Rules are in force and are being treated as such by all licensing authorities, you are free to test this out by visiting your nearest licensing authority.

Added in 7 minutes :
Re: Certified Course for Arms License

44. Power to make rules
(1) The Central Government may, by notification in the Official Gazette, make rules for carrying out the purposes of this Act.

(2) In particular, and without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing power, such rules may provide for all or any of the following matters, namely:---

(a) the appointment, jurisdiction, control and functions of licensing authorities 1[including the areas and the categories of arms and ammunition for which they may grant licenses];
(b) the form and particulars of application for the grant or renewal of a licence and where the application is for the renewal of a licence, the time within which it shall be made;
(c) the form in which and the conditions subject to which any licence may be granted or refused, renewed, varied, suspended or revoked;
(d) where no period has been specified in this Act, the period for which any licence shall continue to be in force;
(e) the fees payable in respect of any application for the grant or renewal of a licence and in respect of any licence granted or renewed and the manner of paying the same;
(f) the manner in which the maker's name, the manufacturer's number or other identification mark of a firearm shall be stamped or otherwise shown thereon;
(g) the procedure for the test or proof of any firearms;
(h) the firearms that may be used in the course of training, the age-limits of persons who may use them and the conditions for their use by such persons;
(i) the authority to whom appeals may be preferred under section 18, the procedure to be followed by such authority and the period within which appeals shall be preferred, the fees to be paid in respect of such appeals and the refund of such fees;
(j) the maintenance of records or accounts of anything done under a licence other than a licence under section 3 or section 4, the form of, and the entries to be made in, such records or accounts and the exhibition of such records or accounts to any police officer or to any officer of Government empowered in this behalf;
(k) the entry and inspection by any police officer or by any officer of Government empowered in this behalf of any premises or other place in which arms or ammunition are or is manufactured or in which arms or ammunition are or is kept by a manufacturer of or dealer in such arms or ammunition and the exhibition of the same to such officer;
(l) the conditions subject to which arms or ammunition may be deposited with a licensed dealer or in a unit armoury as required by sub-section (1) of section 21 and the period on the expiry of which the things so deposited may be forfeited;
(m) any other matter is to be, or may be, prescribed.

(3) Every rule made under this section shall be laid as soon as may be after it is made before each House of Parliament while it is in session for a total period of thirty days which may be comprised in one session or in two or more successive sessions, and if, before the expiry of the session immediately following the session or the successive sessions aforesaid; both Houses agree in making any modification in the rule or both Houses agree that the rule should not be made, the rule shall thereafter have effect only in such modified form or be of no effect, as the case may be, so, however, that any such modification or annulment shall be without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under that rule.

Please read Section 44 (3) carefully, take special note of the last couple of sentences. Just because we wish something to be a certain way, does not make it so.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:03 pm**

mundaire wrote:The Rules are in force and are being treated as such by all licensing authorities, you are free to test this out by visiting your nearest licensing authority.

It appears you are not getting the point I am trying to convey. What you are telling is true and I am also aware of this. If anything is being implemented by any licensing authority or even MHA, it does not mean it has acquired force of law. MHA and licensing authorities are even implementing that illegal policy. That does not mean that policy has legally acquired the force of law. Yes it is true for the lay man, the policy is "in force". But legally it is not in force.

For any enactment to acquire the force of law, it must go through the due process of law for the enactment. The due process includes either the Parliament fully delegate it's legislative powers for the particular provision in the enactment or the concerned provision under the enactment must get the full Parliamentary approval. Section 44(3) of Arms Act 1959 makes it very clear that full Parliamentary approval is necessary for Rules to have "force of law". Please note the words "full Parliamentary approval". Incomplete Parliamentary approval is incomplete law.

Can the Section 44(3) of Arms Act 1959 answer this substantial question of law related to basic principles of justice and jurisprudence? That what happens to any person who has been prosecuted for violating this unapproved Rule but has been later on amended or annulled by Parliament? Can such prosecutions be allowed under the law?

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:35 pm**

Hi,

Section 44 of the Arm Act empower Central Gov to make rules by notification in the Official Gazt. Rules are laid before both the houses of parliament which can decide to modify or reject the same. In case parliament rejects or modifies rules laid before it any thing done under the said rules will not be annulled meaning will stand test of legal scrutiny.

Say for example in case Parliament revokes state gov power to grant all india license then validity of those who got all india licence before revocation and after publication in official gaz will stand

Now anybody know from where to get certificate under new rules.

Cheers
Biren

Please read 44(1) (2) & (3) of Act. Mundaire is correct.

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:41 pm**

It is not the question of who is correct or who is incorrect. It is the question of understanding the pith and substance of the matter i.e. what has been laid down and what has not been laid down in Section 44 of Arms Act 1959.

The delegation of licensing powers from Central Government to State Governments for all India licenses happens only after the Rules get fully approved by the Parliament as mentioned in Section 44(3) of Arms Act 1959. Thus your comparison with delegation of licensing powers to State governments for all India licenses is immaterial.

It needs to be understood that the Parliament never delegated it's full legislative powers to the central government under Section 44 of Arms Act 1959 in the first place. Since Parliament has not given full legislative approval to the Rules that are created under Section 44 of Arms Act 1959, that is why Section 44(3) of Arms Act 1959 makes it very clear that full Parliamentary approval is necessary for Rules to have "force of law". Please note the words "full Parliamentary approval". Incomplete Parliamentary approval is equal to incomplete law, notwithstanding the power to issue Notification in Official Gazette under Section 44 of Arms Act 1959.

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:56 pm**

goodboy_mentor,

You are misleading people in to believing that the Arms Rules 2016 are not in force. THE FACT OF THE MATTER is that THEY ARE VERY MUCH IN FORCE and have been so, from the time they were notified!

In case anyone has a Supreme Court judgement which says otherwise, I'd be the happiest person on the planet and gladly admit I was wrong.

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:30 pm**

Well I am not trying to mislead anyone. May be I have not been able to express or understand the matter completely. Only discussing the matter. After re - reading the matter a few times more, realizing yes Rules are in force. But since Section 30 of Arms Act 1959 is mandating punishment for violating the rules, the question can the Section 44(3) of Arms Act 1959 answer this substantial question of law related to basic principles of justice and jurisprudence? That what happens to any person who has been prosecuted for violating this unapproved Rule but has been later on amended or annulled by Parliament? Can such prosecutions be allowed under the law? I will keep searching for this answer.

Posted: **Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:46 pm**

Yaar Good boy rules come into force after being notified in official Gazt.... ACT is by parliament.. or by means of ordinance to be ratified by president ..then parliament... here act remains same..rules are modified.. effective from the date of being notified in official gaz...if big boss (parliament) dosnt like then previous position remains...but those guys who acted on amended rules...why shld those be penalized?

Now who gives certificate so I cam apply for handgun?

Cheers
Biren

Posted: **Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:29 am**

Biren wrote:Now who gives certificate so I cam apply for handgun?

The office of licensing authority that will finally say that you need this certificate or that certificate is the best entity to answer this question via RTI application. Reply given via RTI Act has legal value. May also mention in RTI application that if your office does not have the information sought in this application, then as per Section 6(3) of RTI Act 2005 please transfer the application to appropriate office and inform you of the same. Once you have the answer via RTI please share the answer here.

Posted: **Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:19 pm**

Biren wrote:Hi,

Where to undergo arms training under new rules as is required under the new arms rules? Who provides certified course?
Biren

In few districts of Punjab (Ferozepur and Fazilka), the requirement of certified course for fresh arms license is compulsory from past 4-5 years.
The certificate is given by Punjab Police Academy, Phillaur. Govt. fee is Rs. 3,000/- and its three days course.

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